52. Lisa Kramer and The Little Miracles of Change
“You have to get out of your comfort zone when you are trying new things...but more often than not, you are going to be pleasantly surprised by the result”
To us here at Messy Middlescence, when we hear the word “reinvention”, it has a magical connotation to it. We are not sure why. Because when you look closely, reinvention isn’t easy - it involves tremendous work, determination, and a willingness to step into the unknown. Reinvention is a conscious process of transforming one’s life, career or mindset -- or sometimes all three. It requires letting go of what is familiar and comfortable and stepping toward something new without a clear map.
The desire to reinvent oneself, one’s life or one’s career can happen at any age. Most of us have experienced this desire at some point in our lives and it can be the motivation for significant change. But true reinvention, the kind that leads to meaningful, lasting change, is much more unusual. And perhaps that is where the “magic” comes in.
True reinvention requires something deeper than hard work and determination. It asks us to listen to that quiet inner voice, the one that is so often drowned out by fear, societal pressures and existing responsibilities. Learning to hear and trust that voice is what makes real transformation possible.
Today we speak with Lisa Kramer, founder and president of Leading with Intention who has followed that inner voice time and again — successfully reinventing her professional life multiple times along the way.
In our conversation, Lisa shares her own experiences with reinvention as well as the work she does supporting others through similar transitions. Her recent pivot to retirement coaching focuses on helping individuals and couples design their next chapter with intention and clarity which feels relevant to anyone navigating change.
Lisa brings both honesty and wisdom to this conversation. She helps us see that reinvention is both practical and, in its own way, a little bit magical.
In this episode, we explore:
How Lisa’s background in social work shaped her approach as a coach
The role of relationships, connection, and community especially as we age
Her experiences navigating the challenges of an aging parent and what supported her most
How creating a personal manifesto can offer clarity and direction
The idea of “purpose with a little “p” and why it can feel more accessible and fulfilling.
The difficulty, and necessity, of letting go of identity at different stages of life
Why reinvention is so hard: there is no formula, no clear path and no “instruction manual”
How fear and discomfort show up in times of change and why the outcome often surprises us
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[00:20] Christina Donovan: Welcome to Messy Middle Essence.
[00:22] This is a podcast where we talk honestly about the changes. Change, challenges, connections, and gifts that come with midlife.
[00:30] Nothing too polished, just real conversations that remind us we're not alone.
[00:35] So let's dive in.
[00:42] Tara Bansal: Welcome.
[00:44] I am very excited to have Christina Conti Donovan and Lisa Kramer here with us today on Messy Middlescence.
[00:55] Lisa is a fellow coach,
[00:59] and that's how I met her, was through a mutual coach that both of us worked with.
[01:06] And she lives near us and we met, got together and met,
[01:14] and I've just admired her from afar and up close for a while now.
[01:21] She helps people with reinvention, and she has done that herself a couple of times.
[01:29] And she now is focusing on helping others reinvent themselves before retirement. I don't like that word, but.
[01:42] And so we thought she would be the perfect guest to have here on SC Middlescence. She does have some offerings that you can find on her website,
[01:53] but she has a lot of experience and wisdom that we're thrilled to have here on Messy Middlescence.
[02:02] So thank you for coming, Lisa.
[02:05] Christina Donovan: Welcome, Lisa.
[02:06] Lisa Kramer: Thanks. Thanks to both of you. It's wonderful to be here.
[02:10] Tara Bansal: So we always start with our first question in Brene Brown fashion. What is your story?
[02:17] We'd just like to hear where you came from and what got you here today.
[02:23] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, that's a big question. And so I have lots of. Lots of things to share. So one thing that feels particularly important right now is I turned 70 on my last birthday.
[02:37] And that number to me feels very significant for a lot of reasons. I think, you know, it feels like a big number.
[02:45] And I did a lot of reflection as I was approaching that birthday and around that birthday about just looking at my life and the things that I felt really good about and what were some things that still felt challenging to me.
[03:00] Um, but I. I think one of the things that I feel really proud about, that's part of my story, is you use the word reinvention.
[03:10] That during the course of my professional life,
[03:13] I have reinvented myself several times.
[03:16] And my business, when I first started, it was called living with intention. I think that really is who I am.
[03:25] I really do live with intention and think about, you know, what is it that I want? And once I get that clarity, I'm able to move forward.
[03:33] So the work evolved, first starting as a social worker and then teaching undergraduate and graduate social work, and then making a career change to leadership and executive coaching, and now making another shift to this area of retirement.
[03:53] And I agree with you, Tara. The word is not.
[03:57] It doesn't resonate with me so much either, but it is what it is.
[04:03] Tara Bansal: Yeah, people know, right?
[04:06] Lisa Kramer: Exactly.
[04:08] And then personally, I,
[04:10] I got married when I was in my late 20s and had two sons who are now.
[04:17] My older son is, is turning 40 next week. And that's, that's as hard to say as 70 is.
[04:25] Having a 40 year old child is like, how did that happen?
[04:29] And my younger son is 37. They're both married and doing really well in life, which is for a parent, very gratifying. And I have three grandchildren,
[04:41] which is also awesome.
[04:44] Tara Bansal: How old are your grandchildren?
[04:46] Lisa Kramer: They are eight,
[04:49] almost seven and three,
[04:52] two girls and a boy.
[04:54] And they're so much fun, really.
[04:57] I think grandchildren do help you to stay young and connect with that playful part of yourself. So that, that's been really fun.
[05:07] I did get divorced after 23 years of marriage.
[05:11] And I have to say,
[05:15] my ex husband and I really,
[05:17] I think we divorced. Well, if,
[05:20] you know, sounds kind of strange to say it that way, but we, we were intentional about how we were going to separate and talk to our children and remain friends afterwards.
[05:30] And that really has happened because,
[05:33] you know, there's so many life events that you have as a family and even when you're not that same intact family,
[05:40] there's weddings, there's grandchildren, there's,
[05:43] you know, funerals, there's everything.
[05:45] And I'm really grateful that my former husband and I continued to maintain a good,
[05:55] A good friendship.
[05:56] Tara Bansal: How old were your children when you did get divorced?
[06:00] Lisa Kramer: Um, they were both in college. So one was a senior and one was a freshman. Yeah.
[06:05] Tara Bansal: And if you don't mind, like. Cause being married for 23 years and then, you know, making that decision, how, how did that come about?
[06:18] Lisa Kramer: I think it was a long time coming, to be honest with you. I probably really felt in my heart about 10 years before that,
[06:29] you know, there were, there were differences that just felt irreconcilable, like nothing wrong with him, nothing wrong with me, but as a couple,
[06:39] it kind of felt like, you know, the terms of the contract had ended and we did, we were a couple who did our work. Like we,
[06:47] we went to counseling, we did couples workshops,
[06:51] we did things to work on the relationship. So it was not one of these impulsive decisions at all.
[06:58] But we both agreed that it was time to move on. We separated for a while and just said,
[07:07] let's see what it's like living apart, separating.
[07:12] And then it was clear that the relationship really was going to end in that way.
[07:20] Tara Bansal: Was that related to the timing of shifting from social work to coaching?
[07:27] Lisa Kramer: Well, it's. It's such a great question because I have to tell you that I became a coach and my very first client,
[07:38] leadership and executive client.
[07:41] This person to me appeared out of nowhere. Like, I call him my earth angel because I worked with him for 10 years.
[07:49] Wow. And when he and I started working together, that was the first year that my business made six figures.
[08:00] And it gave me the confidence. Like I. I just knew, like, I can do this. Like, I can go off on my own and support myself and take care of myself.
[08:11] And it. That client and I. I shared that with him about him being my earth angel. And he,
[08:17] you know, we have.
[08:18] Tara Bansal: We're.
[08:19] Lisa Kramer: We're no longer in contact, but it was. That was really together. Yeah. Yeah.
[08:27] Tara Bansal: So what motivated you to make the switch to the executive and leadership coaching?
[08:36] Lisa Kramer: Well, it's interesting because I was a social. I had a social work background and,
[08:41] you know, taught undergraduate and graduate social work and felt like there was more for me to give outside of the university setting. And then I did this certification to become a coach.
[08:57] And it was just natural to go into life, personal and life coaching, because I had a social work background that was.
[09:04] And I saw people around me. Now, this is. We're talking about the early 2000s, so coaching was nowhere near as popular as it is today.
[09:15] And I saw people around me getting into leadership and executive coaching,
[09:22] and there was certainly more money to make in that,
[09:27] pursuing that type of coaching.
[09:30] And I also felt like I had grown up in a family where everybody was in business. And even though I didn't personally have corporate experience,
[09:40] I thought,
[09:41] I can.
[09:42] I can do this. I can at least try it and see.
[09:46] And that first client that I mentioned to you,
[09:49] I think working with him really gave me the confidence.
[09:52] And then it just sort of took off from there.
[09:55] Tara Bansal: Wow. That's great.
[09:57] Lisa Kramer: Yeah. I mean, what are some of the
[10:00] Christina Donovan: things from being a social worker that have carried. That you carried with you into your new roles?
[10:08] Lisa Kramer: The one thing about social work that. Well, there's a couple things. One is social workers really understand human behavior similar to psychology.
[10:20] In social work, you learn a lot about human behavior,
[10:24] and in social work school,
[10:27] you learn a lot about the person. They call it person and environment.
[10:31] So you're looking at the individual, but you're also looking at the environment in which they're either living or operating if it's a business situation.
[10:40] So understanding systems.
[10:42] That ties in beautifully with coaching.
[10:47] And social workers are also incredibly resourceful, like there's something that you learn, or maybe it's part of who you are,
[10:55] about connecting people with resources or just being.
[10:59] Being resourceful. And I think that also came into play in my work as a coach.
[11:07] Christina Donovan: Very interesting.
[11:08] Lisa Kramer: Yeah.
[11:09] Tara Bansal: Anything more on your story of going back?
[11:13] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, I was thinking about this because I was thinking about,
[11:17] you know, our connection, Tara. And,
[11:20] you know, you were really one of the first people.
[11:25] I remember sitting and having lunch with you one day and getting into this conversation, and you were teaching an adult ed class and on retirement,
[11:36] and you were at a point where you were saying, you know what? I just don't. I don't feel like this is something I want to keep doing.
[11:43] How would you feel about, you know, taking over for me? And I thought,
[11:48] sure, why not? And you so generously offered me your materials, and.
[11:55] And so I jumped in and started teaching on Zoom,
[11:59] and.
[11:59] Tara Bansal: Because it was during COVID Right?
[12:01] Lisa Kramer: It was during COVID Yeah. I think the first year I taught, it was 2021.
[12:06] And then I gradually, you know, through my own learning and experience,
[12:10] started refining things and making it my own, and then started teaching at an adult ed program where I live outside of Philly. And that was all in person.
[12:22] So that had a different. A different feel to it.
[12:27] But the.
[12:28] I would say the opportunity to teach adults about retirement and everything that comes up and really be more of a facilitator than a. Like, I always have content that I present, but as, you know, classes come alive by who's in them.
[12:44] And the participants always said at the end of each class,
[12:50] what I love the most is the community that gets built in this class. And I think that that's something that's staying with me today as I'm designing different programs now.
[13:03] It's like people want community. Yes. They want whoever they think is the subject matter expert, and you have to be skilled at facilitation.
[13:12] They want to. They really want to connect with other people.
[13:16] Tara Bansal: I agree with that. I think.
[13:19] I don't know. Just as a society right now, we're craving community.
[13:24] And to me, that's part of what Tina and I want to create with messy middlescence is this community of people in similar places and kind of grappling with the same thing.
[13:37] Lisa Kramer: And. Yeah.
[13:39] Tara Bansal: What were some of the differences on Zoom versus being in person that. Do you feel like the community was stronger?
[13:49] Lisa Kramer: Well, it's funny.
[13:51] Just a quick story.
[13:53] In addition to teaching the class to just individuals who wanted to take it,
[13:59] I ran a couple sections on for couples in retirement.
[14:06] And from the group that I was introduced to through you,
[14:11] I had four couples in one of the classes that I taught,
[14:15] and they were incredible, and they really connected with each other. And about maybe two months after the class ended,
[14:25] I got an email with a picture of all four couples sitting in a restaurant. They had all. They went out to dinner together.
[14:34] So for me,
[14:36] I love Zoom just as much as in person,
[14:38] so it was not a barrier at all. But I know there's a lot of people, like, you know, the participants who say,
[14:45] I want to be in a room with people. I don't want to just look at a screen.
[14:50] But I think, you know, we work with what we have, and as far as I'm concerned, they. They both work really well.
[14:57] Yeah.
[14:58] The group that I just taught in my area this past fall,
[15:04] they.
[15:05] There's 15 of them. They. They haven't all stayed together, but I would say at least 10 of them have decided to form their own group, and they're calling it the Epic Retirement Club.
[15:19] And I've gone out to dinner with them once. They're starting a book club. They want to go hiking together.
[15:25] So these classes, they start to take on a life of their own. And it's.
[15:30] It's so gratifying for me to.
[15:33] To witness it. And then I. I always say to them, hey, I'm. I'm going through this, too. Like, I'm.
[15:39] Christina Donovan: I don't.
[15:39] Lisa Kramer: I'm not an expert with all the answers. I'd love to participate. So I'm joining them for some of their activities, too.
[15:46] Tara Bansal: Lisa, you.
[15:49] I didn't know how old you were,
[15:51] but I knew you were older than me, but you look like you're 50.
[15:58] I mean, and I'm not just saying that, like one in the world would ever,
[16:04] ever guess that you.
[16:05] Lisa Kramer: Well, thank you. I. I appreciate that. And I know. I know we'll get into this a little bit.
[16:14] I definitely feel that, you know, my commitment to really taking good care of myself, it's. It. It's like, at the top of my list.
[16:24] You know, there's other things up there, too, but it's. I just feel like it's so important as we age, you know, the.
[16:31] Just paying attention to what we eat and getting the rest we need and exercise and whatever spiritual practices, things like that, that really make a difference.
[16:43] Tara Bansal: Has that changed for you, or have you always been that way?
[16:48] Lisa Kramer: I would say it's gotten more as I've gotten older. I think when I was raising my kids,
[16:55] as I'm sure you can both relate, you know, you're pulled in so many different directions. And I did at one point, in my 30s,
[17:06] experience thyroid disease. And I think it was from being so stressed, my body was just saying to me, like,
[17:14] you gotta do something different.
[17:16] And, you know, I think it was really like a blessing in disguise because I. I got it treated and I'm fine.
[17:23] But it did force me to look at how I was living my life and what I was taking on and not being able to ask for help and all those things that I think a lot of women struggle with.
[17:35] And I.
[17:36] So probably by the time I was in my 40s,
[17:39] I became more conscious of taking care of myself. It wasn't. Wasn't great, but it was a lot better after going through thyroid disease.
[17:51] And then as I got older and of course, when you're children are out of the house and they're kind of launched,
[17:57] but you have. You have more time to focus on yourself. So.
[18:01] Tara Bansal: Yeah, what feels most important to you now?
[18:06] Lisa Kramer: Definitely relationships. Relationships feel most important.
[18:10] So I mentioned that I got divorced and I was actually single for over 15 years. I did,
[18:22] you know, I had a few different relationships, but nobody who I felt like I really wanted to,
[18:31] you know, commit to long term.
[18:33] And then a little over three years ago,
[18:38] a friend reintroduced me to someone who I knew in my 20s, so I didn't know I was being reintroduced to someone I knew.
[18:47] It turned out she said, I'd like you to meet. So. And so he called, we spoke,
[18:54] and his name was not a name where you would say, oh, I know you like, you know, Tara Bansal is a name that there's probably not hundreds of his. His name is a little more common.
[19:06] And so it wasn't until I showed up at the restaurant, it was like, wow, I know you.
[19:11] So we knew each other in our 20s. We didn't date. We were friends,
[19:16] and we, you know, started to spend time together. And then, you know, it became a romantic relationship and we're now living together and engaged to be married, which is exciting.
[19:30] Yeah, it is exciting.
[19:32] So I would say having.
[19:34] Having that. That person in my life is,
[19:39] you know, it's just for so many reasons, you know, the.
[19:44] The companionship,
[19:46] having someone to navigate life's challenges. And let's face it, as we get older, I think we're challenged by a lot of different things. Loss and health issues and things like that.
[19:59] So certainly that. That's been very important. And then just my. My relationships with my women friends,
[20:06] I feel like those relationships are.
[20:10] They're like my lifeline, you know, so many of the friends I have, I've had for quite a few years, like decades.
[20:20] And then I've met some, some newer people recently. And I, I like,
[20:25] especially through my partner, I've gotten to know some of the friends that he's brought into the relationship. And it's nice to also have my friendship circle expanding.
[20:38] That's very important. And then of course, my adult children and my grandchildren. So in general,
[20:43] I would say for me, relationships are super important right now.
[20:48] Tara Bansal: And how do you prioritize that or be intentional with that in your life?
[20:56] Lisa Kramer: I make, I do make plans a lot. I'm a planner,
[21:00] so I'm working part time now and that, that also helps cause it opens up my schedule a bit. But I like, for example, last weekend I had the opportunity to go down to Florida with two of my girlfriends who happened to also be coaches.
[21:16] And the three of us kind of all grew up as coaches over the past 20 years or so. So we got to get away together, which is always very fun and restorative.
[21:27] And I'll make plans, you know, to grab dinner with somebody, go for a walk.
[21:32] So for me, I don't know if you have this experience that it's like when I haven't made plans with a friend in a while, I start to really feel it.
[21:43] Like it's like, oh, something's missing here. Oh, I haven't really seen anybody in a while and. And I don't end up talking on the phone a lot these days. Like once upon a time, the phone was a real way of connecting, but now I find myself texting someone and say,
[22:02] like, could we make an appointment to have a phone conversation?
[22:06] It's kind of bizarre the way we live, right?
[22:08] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[22:09] Lisa Kramer: So in that regard, I think the face to face really is more satisfying than just talking on the phone or facetime or something like that. Yeah, very nice.
[22:21] Tara Bansal: What change are you currently navigating? I mean you're. When is your wedding?
[22:27] Lisa Kramer: It's the spring.
[22:28] Tara Bansal: Okay. So soon.
[22:30] Lisa Kramer: It's soon and it's interesting. So when you first asked me the question,
[22:37] aside from the wedding,
[22:39] I have recently moved my 97 year old mom into a memory care facility and that happened yesterday. So it's very new.
[22:54] Very new.
[22:55] And the circumstances leading up to it were,
[22:59] I think for some people they'd go through things over a long period of time. For me, it wasn't like that. She was living in an apartment with my brother,
[23:08] ended up being hospitalized with a uti and it was very clear that she couldn't go back to her apartment. So she came to live with me and my partner and stayed here for about five weeks.
[23:21] So it was very intense. Very intense five weeks.
[23:25] And then I found a really good place and we moved her yesterday. So I still feel like I'm in the throes of that change that. That has been huge and very emotional to go through that.
[23:42] And yes, the, The. The wedding also.
[23:46] And at the same time, like, we are doing something very low key, just with children and grandchildren here at the house.
[23:56] So not that it isn't very significant,
[23:59] but it's different. It feels different than the first time around when,
[24:03] you know, I don't know about the two of you, but, you know, planning this big wedding and,
[24:07] and all of the hoopla that goes with it, it's. It feels very different at this stage of life for me, anyway.
[24:15] Tara Bansal: I mean, I don't know if this is true, but I almost feel like the older you get when you get married, the smaller the wedding, because it's just like you only want the really important people there.
[24:28] Right?
[24:29] Yeah. I don't know if that's true for everyone, but I think I could see that being true for me.
[24:34] Lisa Kramer: Yeah. I think what I hear is depending upon what the circumstances were like in the previous marriage or in some case marriages,
[24:44] that sometimes determines how. How it is at this stage.
[24:48] Yeah. So. But for me, I. I definitely agree with what you're saying. It just.
[24:54] We also.
[24:56] I turned 70 and Mike, my partner, turned 75.
[25:00] So we each had big birthday parties last year. So I think going through that is like, okay, we celebrated with friends. Now we can just have it be more private.
[25:12] And I think it'll be special that way.
[25:15] Tara Bansal: Any advice on you're right in the throes of it, but for people having to deal with older parents and what you've had to deal with in the past few weeks, and I can't believe just you're here today and put your mother in yesterday.
[25:36] So thank you for that.
[25:37] Lisa Kramer: Yeah.
[25:38] Tara Bansal: But any. I know it's still fresh, but anything that jumps out at you for advice to those of us that will go through this.
[25:50] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the.
[25:53] One of the things that I was thinking about in preparation for our conversation was like, what. What really has helped me to kind of stay grounded and just feel.
[26:06] I mean, there's so much that you can control about this. So what are the things that are in my control and whatever isn't, you just gotta let it go.
[26:18] But what I know has been in my control is what I said before. Like, eating healthy,
[26:24] getting my exercise in, getting rest in, like,
[26:28] those were like, the non negotiables for me because I know from my past history that if I don't take care of myself in that way, I'm gonna be good for nothing.
[26:41] So I think those, those three things in particular helped me to at least feel like I had, like, the inner resources to face whatever came up, whether it was a difficult conversation with a family member or making these big decisions.
[27:01] I think taking care of myself really, really helped a lot.
[27:09] So I. I would encourage people who are in the throes of this to,
[27:15] like, be selfish in the best sense of the word. And, and you're doing so much for others.
[27:22] Like, what. What can you do for you that will help to kind of replenish the supplies?
[27:28] Tara Bansal: Yeah, that's great advice.
[27:31] Christina Donovan: Yeah, that's terrific advice.
[27:33] Tara Bansal: Keep your tank full as much as you can, because it's so much.
[27:39] Lisa Kramer: Yes,
[27:40] great.
[27:41] I also think asking for help is. Is another thing that is important.
[27:47] I. I think daughters, I'm not saying that sons don't feel responsibility, so I don't want to, you know, completely generalize. I. I do think that a lot of times daughters take on more, and whether it's how we're socially conditioned or whatever it is,
[28:08] so we take on more and we shoulder a lot. It's funny,
[28:13] I had a pain in one of my shoulders, and one of my friends does body work, and she. She came out with this expression. She said,
[28:21] you've been shouldering a lot, haven't you?
[28:23] So interesting, because, like,
[28:25] it was showing up in my shoulder, you know,
[28:28] and I think we do. And, and just being able to say to a partner, to a friend,
[28:34] to anyone, like,
[28:36] can you help me here with this? Is.
[28:38] Is also really important.
[28:40] Tara Bansal: I love how our body sometimes, you know, communicates to us more clearly than it really does.
[28:47] Lisa Kramer: Our bodies have so much wisdom.
[28:51] Tara Bansal: I agree with that.
[28:52] Lisa Kramer: Yeah.
[28:54] Tara Bansal: Shifting gears a little to people wanting to enjoy their next phase. What advice do you have on where
[29:06] Lisa Kramer: to begin with that?
[29:08] So I,
[29:10] like most coaches,
[29:12] work with our own coaches at different points along the way. And I decided,
[29:17] you know, in the middle of last year, I really wanted some coaching on this transition for myself.
[29:24] And so my coach encouraged, strongly encouraged me to come up with a manifesto which has really, what I believe,
[29:36] you know, so a series of statements about what I believe in relation to this work that I'm doing.
[29:44] And so I'd love to share some of that and talk a little bit about,
[29:51] you know, in response to the question.
[29:54] So One thing is we matter,
[29:59] no matter our age.
[30:02] Because I think that a lot of times when people stop doing whatever they've been doing for 25, 30, 40 years and maybe they had really full, wonderful careers, but they know they're done and they reach a point where they're wondering, well,
[30:23] you know,
[30:24] what's my purpose? Do I matter anymore?
[30:27] And I think really believing, yes,
[30:31] you are here still because you do matter and there is more,
[30:39] more life and more for you to give. And sometimes it's just a big question mark like, what is that?
[30:47] So that, that is something that,
[30:50] that comes up a lot.
[30:53] So continuing with the, with the manifesto a little bit, I think having that, that belief and really feeling like you do matter and you have a lot to give, even if you're not sure what that is and that, you know, there's so much about our purpose and what's my purpose?
[31:19] And that question in and of itself can be daunting.
[31:23] And a friend recently recommended a book to me called the Purpose Code by Jordan.
[31:33] I believe it's Grummet G R U M E T.
[31:37] And the book talks about purpose as something to be built and not just found through small actionable steps.
[31:48] So the big P, the capital P for purpose, is more anxiety inducing,
[31:56] but the little P is more about finding daily meaning.
[32:01] And I think at this stage it isn't about searching for this big P purpose,
[32:09] but it's really more about like, what are the, the smaller things that on a day to day basis bring me joy, I find that I have energy for.
[32:20] And I love how Elizabeth, Elizabeth Gilbert in her book Big Magic talks about like following the breadcrumbs and really paying attention to what are those breadcrumbs? Like, do somebody may get a lot of pleasure from going next door and helping a neighbor with something, you know, or babysitting grandchildren or taking care of their garden.
[32:47] Taking care of their garden, yes.
[32:50] So I think what ends up happening is there's a lot of shoulding that goes on and I really encourage people to ditch the shoulds and experiment with trying what they really want.
[33:07] And they may not even be clear about what they really want, but it's like, oh, I'm curious about this,
[33:14] so give it a try. Like, what's the worst that can happen?
[33:18] We've been so programmed for so many years that,
[33:22] you know, this is what life looks like. And now we're at a place where there's lots of options if we're fortunate enough, you know, to have those options.
[33:33] And I think experimenting with different things and seeing,
[33:39] you know, what are you learning about yourself?
[33:42] What. What's coming out of that, that maybe as a surprise for you,
[33:46] what have you learned you don't want?
[33:48] It's all just good data. And I think taking things a little bit less seriously and approaching things with a lighter touch can also make it more satisfying.
[34:02] When you're in this place of experimenting with new things,
[34:06] how do you help people do that?
[34:08] Tara Bansal: Through your classes or.
[34:10] Lisa Kramer: Or through your work with
[34:14] Tara Bansal: clients?
[34:15] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, so it really is a combination of offering some content and some exercises that people can do.
[34:26] Like, for example,
[34:28] as coaches, we're very familiar with the Wheel of Life, which looks at somebody's whole life in eight different sections. And, you know, what's your level of satisfaction today in each of these areas?
[34:41] And where do you want to begin to focus some time and attention?
[34:46] So that helps to break it down a little bit, because sometimes when people are thinking about their whole life, that can be overwhelming. But if it's like, oh, I would really like to focus on health and wellness a little bit more now that I have the time on my hands,
[35:03] that's something that I want to explore.
[35:06] So then they come up with, like,
[35:09] it's not. As a coach, I'm not saying, okay, here's a plan you're going to follow around health and wellness,
[35:15] but it's. It's really helping them to kind of learn from the inside out. What. What's going to work for them? Because maybe their best friend goes to the gym three days a week and they're just like, no, I'm not a gym person.
[35:28] Okay,
[35:29] you don't have to be. What. What's going to work for you?
[35:33] So I think the kind of chunking it down and then realizing that it's not a formula and there's no one way of doing things and supporting them in finding what's going to work for them.
[35:48] And that may change, too. But at least as they're starting out,
[35:52] what's going to work for them?
[35:55] Christina Donovan: I find that really interesting. It's just.
[35:58] It's so different from the way I feel like we've been conditioned both, whether it's through learning or education or even just socially,
[36:08] to just let yourself have the freedom to kind of follow and explore.
[36:14] I don't think those.
[36:15] The way our society is come naturally to most people.
[36:20] Lisa Kramer: I totally agree. It's not easy. It's almost like you want somebody to say, okay, here's. Here's what you should try.
[36:30] Christina Donovan: Here's the plan.
[36:31] Tara Bansal: Here's the recipe or instructions.
[36:35] Lisa Kramer: Yeah,
[36:36] and maybe for some, having a more kind of prescriptive way of doing it is better. I just believe that when people start to learn more, like the thing about this time of year,
[36:53] to me, it's like, it's discovering like kind of what our hearts and souls desire.
[36:58] And so if I was to say to you, for example, Tina,
[37:03] well,
[37:04] why don't you go volunteer at your local,
[37:07] you know, soup kitchen?
[37:10] That may be something I'm interested in doing, but you may not be. And so for me to,
[37:16] to say that to you,
[37:18] not that there's anything wrong with that, you can, you can say, all right, I'm going to go try it out and then decide, now, that's not what I want.
[37:24] But I also think that one of the things as coaches that we do is we see our clients as creative, resourceful and whole. And sometimes people,
[37:35] people come and have the answers and sometimes there's a process of kind of gently nudging them to,
[37:45] to listen to that kind of still, quiet voice inside of us that,
[37:49] that is there, but so often there's just so much noise that we can't get to it.
[37:55] And that's, that's really how I see myself. I'm kind of guiding people through a process to get to that, that inner wisdom and that still, quiet voice that is just has all the gold.
[38:08] Yeah, yeah.
[38:10] Tara Bansal: That's unique for them.
[38:12] Lisa Kramer: Exactly, exactly.
[38:14] Tara Bansal: I agree with that. I feel like that's a big part of coaching is, you know, just asking the questions and eliciting, almost like helping them uncover.
[38:27] Lisa Kramer: Yes.
[38:27] Tara Bansal: Their true desires.
[38:30] Lisa Kramer: The other thing I have found for me personally is the one on one coaching isn't as satisfying anymore as it used to be.
[38:38] And so the work that I'm doing is whether it's these adult ed classes or I've led now a few one day retreats. I've done some sessions on Zoom.
[38:52] I really believe this piece about finding ways for people to connect with each other in some form of community is really important.
[39:04] And I'm not like pooh poohing one on one coaching. I still think it's very valuable,
[39:09] but I think at this stage of life,
[39:11] hearing about other people's experiences and what are they going through and what ideas do they have,
[39:17] can be, can be super helpful
[39:22] Tara Bansal: and going back to,
[39:25] Lisa Kramer: I
[39:25] Tara Bansal: don't know, just relationships and creating and nourishing them.
[39:31] Lisa Kramer: Yes.
[39:31] Tara Bansal: And having that sense of community.
[39:34] I know for us, like hearing you describe these classes, it's like that sounds perfect, you know,
[39:41] like most people really do want that.
[39:44] Yeah,
[39:45] yeah.
[39:45] Lisa Kramer: I think they do,
[39:47] even if they don't know they do, because there have been a couple people in the class who have said,
[39:52] well, my spouse told me to sign up for this,
[39:56] and they ended up loving it. Like, they may not have signed up themselves because it's. It can feel a little scary, maybe going into a class like this, and they've never done anything like this before, but it's just amazing how much support and.
[40:12] And we laugh a lot too. There's a lot of humor in these classes, and to me, that's never a bad thing. So.
[40:19] Tara Bansal: Yeah,
[40:20] I also love the idea of doing it as a couple. I remember when I did it,
[40:26] there were a few couples, but I wouldn't say that was the norm.
[40:30] And I think planning your next phase can be challenging because as a couple, you may want different things. And so how to, like, find the things together and those unique,
[40:46] separate and help design that,
[40:50] I think can be challenging to do it together.
[40:54] Lisa Kramer: That for me personally, that. That's an area that I want to continue to focus on because I love.
[41:00] I love supporting couples. And you're right, like, people want different things. And how do you honor what each person wants separate from their partner, as well as finding the areas where they can, you know, come together and enjoy activities and friends together.
[41:19] So, and. And I don't.
[41:21] It's not always easy for. For couples to communicate about that. So I think these workshops and classes provide a good forum for that.
[41:31] Christina Donovan: What are some of the mistakes that you see people make as they either think about their next phase or are trying to plan their next phase?
[41:43] Lisa Kramer: I don't know if I'd use the word mistake so much as there's sometimes, like a stuckness because people have trouble getting out of their own way. And what I mean by that is,
[41:58] like, somebody in the class might say,
[42:02] I would like a partner.
[42:04] I've been on my own for a long time. I would like to get out there and meet somebody.
[42:11] And so somebody in the class might say,
[42:15] okay, well, have you tried any of the online dating apps or meetup groups or something? And the presence says, no, I really haven't. And,
[42:25] you know, sometimes there's. There's fear underneath that, and we don't. It's not group therapy, so we don't start explore.
[42:32] But I think, I think that, like I will say to people, and I say this to myself too,
[42:38] you have to get out of your comfort zone when you're trying new things.
[42:44] It feels scary sometimes, but more often than not, and I think most of the time, you are going to be pleasantly surprised by what the result is.
[42:56] So, for example,
[42:58] one woman talked about how her social interactions really came from work. And she didn't.
[43:06] She didn't really have a lot of friends outside of work,
[43:08] but yet there were these women at work, and they would, like,
[43:12] have lunch together on a regular basis.
[43:15] So I suggested that she reach out and say, you know, would you like to grab lunch or meet for breakfast or go for a walk?
[43:23] And she hadn't even, you know, she hadn't thought about it, but she decided to do it. And she found that, you know, the.
[43:32] The person on the receiving end was like, great, let's do that.
[43:35] So sometimes you have to be the initiator.
[43:38] And I think people respond really well to that kind of thing.
[43:44] And the same thing happens. I talk about meetup.com a lot because I think there's just so many great programs, no matter what your area of interest is.
[43:54] And people find that whether it's a hiking group or something related to music or whatever it is, there's always something on meetup,
[44:04] and you never know who you're going to meet. It could be a new friend. It could be a romantic relationship. I think getting out of your comfort zone and trying something new can sometimes be daunting and keeps people stuck.
[44:19] So that's one thing I agree with
[44:22] Tara Bansal: that, and that's the theme we've talked about here, is that I do think as you get older, you get very
[44:29] Christina Donovan: stuck in your ways.
[44:31] Tara Bansal: Yeah. You don't want to get uncomfortable, and you don't want to do that. So your advice?
[44:36] Christina Donovan: Right. You avoid the things that.
[44:38] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, right,
[44:39] right. And it's almost like we're programmed in some ways to think about how that might not work out as opposed to what actually could happen that would be really positive.
[44:52] So there's a lot. There's a lot of sort of looking at the mindset. You know, the work by Carol Dweck about a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.
[45:02] And having a growth mindset at this stage of our lives and thinking about how we can learn something new, how we can. You know, somebody once said, like, well, I'm not really good at, you know, fill in the blank and I'll.
[45:16] My response. I say this to coaching clients all the time. I'll say, well, try this one on. Up until now, I'm somebody who hasn't been good at blank.
[45:26] Does that mean that for the rest of your life that has to be true?
[45:30] You know, and I always get interesting reactions to that, like, you know, I had a client who said I'm not good at having difficult conversations.
[45:38] We. We coached around that for a while, and she.
[45:42] I call her the queen of difficult conversations. Now. She will talk to anybody about anything that's on her mind. You know, that's important,
[45:50] and she's learned how to do it, and it's not.
[45:53] It's not an issue for her anymore.
[45:56] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And just the saying, you can't teach an old dog new tricks is so not true. And for us to embrace that and we can right that.
[46:09] Christina Donovan: A lot of these things are skills that take time to either develop or learn that maybe you haven't in the past or.
[46:17] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[46:18] Christina Donovan: Haven't been able to devote the time to maybe develop them.
[46:23] Lisa Kramer: Exactly.
[46:24] Tara Bansal: I even like your idea of going on to meet up and see. I almost feel like. See what interests you, because you may not even know.
[46:36] Christina Donovan: Just as a. Just to kind of look for ideas.
[46:39] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Yeah. Going to the stuckness. Do you feel like people. How do you help people let go of an identity?
[46:53] Lisa Kramer: It's a. It's a process.
[46:55] You know, it's not. It doesn't happen overnight. And I think in particular for somebody who has so identified with the.
[47:09] The job, the role that they had as.
[47:12] That's who they are,
[47:14] when that goes away,
[47:16] that's a tremendous loss.
[47:19] And I do think sometimes we want to do a little bit of a bypass and not feel the feelings because it's. There's a grieving process that happens when you let go of that kind of identity.
[47:33] So I think, number one, acknowledging whatever feelings you have,
[47:38] they are totally valid,
[47:41] make perfect sense.
[47:43] And if you have some days of feeling down in the dumps,
[47:48] don't make yourself wrong or think that, you know, oh, you have a serious problem. No,
[47:54] you're experiencing loss,
[47:56] maybe reaching out to a friend or,
[47:59] you know, getting some support in whatever way,
[48:02] but I think that's really important.
[48:05] And then I think, you know, having these classes and different ways to start to test the water for new things.
[48:16] I've heard of people who.
[48:18] Let's say somebody worked as a CPA and they retire and then they end up doing a little bit of consulting or maybe they still help out during tax season.
[48:31] So it's not like a cold turkey. I'm going from this to nothing. But they. They take it on in. In a small. In smaller chunks, and that feels like a good way to let go.
[48:43] Again. It's. It's not going to be a one size fits all.
[48:46] But I do think acknowledging that there is a loss when you when you stop doing what you've been used to and,
[48:56] and finding ways to experiment with new things and also get support if you need that,
[49:05] and also, you know, participate in these classes and meetup groups and things like that.
[49:10] Tara Bansal: What do you think makes this phase so challenging?
[49:15] Lisa Kramer: I think it's. There's a lot of different levels, like, probably,
[49:21] maybe whether people are conscious of it or not,
[49:24] there's that association with, is this the end? Like, am I now approaching the end?
[49:30] And whatever meaning people make of that
[49:33] Tara Bansal: and emotions around that. Yes. Yeah.
[49:37] Lisa Kramer: If you think about, let's just say Somebody retires at 65 and in, in our world today,
[49:46] it's not unusual. Like, my mom is 97. So,
[49:50] so thinking in terms of this is a,
[49:53] it potentially can be a big chunk of time and it's, you know, look,
[50:02] tomorrow isn't promised to any of us. Right.
[50:06] Um,
[50:06] and there can still be a, a good chunk of time to think about what else, you know, what else do I want for myself. And I know when people have health issues, sometimes that can be very challenging because it, it can impact the ability to make decisions that,
[50:27] you know, well, I don't know what I want because I'm struggling with, you know, that I need to go get this hip replaced or something like that.
[50:37] So I think, I think there's a variety, but I think that the health issues that come up, the.
[50:45] I think loneliness is also a big challenge that, you know, as we age and as I mentioned, this woman before who really had her social interactions at work,
[50:57] that, that's true for a lot of people. And when that goes away,
[51:02] people may be spending more and more time alone and, and need to find ways to have those,
[51:09] those social interactions. There's,
[51:12] there's so much research today that points to,
[51:20] points to the importance of having connections,
[51:24] you know, for a variety of reasons, aside from mental health, like heart disease, cancer, there's so many secondary, you know, health issues that come from people experiencing loneliness over a period of time.
[51:43] Christina Donovan: What has surprised you each time you've sort of reinvented yourself?
[51:49] Lisa Kramer: Oh, one of the things that I was thinking about is just going through change.
[51:57] And you know, what,
[52:00] what have I learned about myself through change? And using reinventive reinvention is like the topic of the change.
[52:08] I,
[52:09] I definitely feel like when I'm proactive about making change in my life, it works a lot better than when something happens to me, but that's how life is. You know, what, what just went on with my mom,
[52:25] it felt like it happened to me more than this was something I proactively planned for.
[52:32] So I think the times that I've gone through the reinvention,
[52:39] I think there's always fear, there's always fear of the unknown. That. That to me feels like it's true for just about everybody. And acknowledging that, yeah, this is scary. I'm taking this on.
[52:51] And when I resigned from my full time faculty position and was just starting my coaching and let go of a salary and benefits,
[53:00] I know there were people that were saying,
[53:03] is she crazy? Like, how could she do that?
[53:07] But I,
[53:08] you know, I guess trusting in myself and. And I talked about that quiet voice before. Like, I knew my,
[53:18] My. This is my language. But like, I knew my soul was speaking to me and saying, like,
[53:24] you gotta go for this. Like, you know that this is something you want. But there were days when I woke up and I thought,
[53:31] I think I'm gonna call my old boss and find out if they'll take me back.
[53:35] You know,
[53:36] And I just think it's normal. And not.
[53:41] Not saying to yourself, oh,
[53:45] you made a mistake because you're having doubts.
[53:48] Doubt is.
[53:50] It's normal.
[53:51] Tara Bansal: Part of the process.
[53:52] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't last. It's just part of the process.
[53:58] Christina Donovan: I'm not sure how to ask this, but as you.
[54:02] You've reinvented yourself each time, so has that sort of helped build your confidence?
[54:07] Each phase that knowing you did it once before, that kind of helped you realize that you could do it again.
[54:16] Lisa Kramer: It's like I have evidence now of doing something different and it working out. So I say to myself, well,
[54:25] I did it before and it worked out, so I need to trust that it's going to this time too. You know, each time it looks a little different. You know, there are unexpected surprises, things that show up.
[54:40] Like I think even how Tara and I met and having this opportunity to teach the course,
[54:49] I had no idea that was gonna happen. And there it was. And yeah, I call them the little
[54:56] Tara Bansal: miracles that, you know, don't expect, but make a difference.
[55:01] Lisa Kramer: And when people. I think when people think about the fact that there are these little miracles all the time,
[55:08] then you're more open to it.
[55:10] Be more open to them showing up.
[55:15] Tara Bansal: Lisa, thank you so, so much for being here. Any last words of wisdom or anything in closing that I know we could have talked for a lot longer, it feels like.
[55:28] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, I really. It goes by fast.
[55:30] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[55:31] Lisa Kramer: What's that?
[55:32] Christina Donovan: It goes by fast.
[55:33] Lisa Kramer: It goes by fast. No, I. I really have enjoyed the conversation and,
[55:40] you know, I think everything that. That I'm sharing that I'm learning is I apply it to myself too, because like I said before,
[55:50] I'm going through it just like all the people who I'm working with are going through it. And I think maybe seeing this phase as something that is really full of possibilities and can be very exciting,
[56:05] is it a great mindset to have?
[56:08] Tara Bansal: I love that. Yeah.
[56:10] Christina Donovan: Super inspiring.
[56:11] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Perfect way to end. Well, thank you, Lisa.
[56:14] Lisa Kramer: Yeah, thank you both for inviting me here.
[56:20] Christina Donovan: This is Tina with our connection challenge for today,
[56:24] which is to check out meetup.com this is a website we talk about throughout today's episode with Lisa and it is a fantastic tool for building community,
[56:37] trying new things, and ultimately getting you out of your comfort zone.
[56:42] It can be found on the web at the address www.meetup.com meetup is one word and we will have a link in our show notes to that website.
[56:55] It will ask you for your location information
[56:59] when you enter the website so you only see events that are near you geographically.
[57:06] We strongly urge you to check it out and perhaps regularly use it as a resource or just to keep in mind for future needs.
[57:16] Tara Bansal: We so appreciate you being here and listening to Messy Middle Essence. We'd love to hear from you, your feedback,
[57:24] ideas,
[57:25] or even topics you'd like us to explore.
[57:28] You can reach us at our website www.messymiddlescence.com and don't forget to subscribe or leave a review to help us grow this wonderful community.
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Lisa Kramer, MSW, CPCC is a professional coach, facilitator and guide with more than 25 years of experience as a life and leadership coach. Her clients include the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and Jefferson Health.
Lisa’s approach is described as engaging, empathetic, and intuitive, and she has a unique ability to connect meaningfully with people from all walks of life. Having reinvented herself multiple times throughout her 40-year career, Lisa is dedicated to helping people who are nearing retirement to design their next chapter.
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Lisa Kramer’s website “Leading with Intention”
Meetup for building community, trying new things, and getting out of your comfort zone
“The Purpose Code” by Dr. Jordan Grumet
Messy Middlescence Episode #36; our discussion on “little p” purpose
“Big Magic” by Elizabeth Gilbert
Carol Dweck – Growth vs. Fixed Mindset
Wheel of Life - this a coaching tool used to help people explore satisfaction across different areas of life and decide where to focus next
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Our connection challenge today is to check out the website www.MeetUp.com. We talk about this website throughout today’s conversation with Lisa and it is a fantastic tool for building community, trying new things and ultimately helping get you out of your comfort zone.
When you enter meetup.com, it will ask you for your location information so you only see events near you (you can change the default distance of the proximity of events it will find for you). We strongly urge you to check it and and regularly use it as a resource or perhaps keep in mind for future needs.