36. Little p’s
“…your “little p” purposes are yours alone instead of the expectations that are set all around you.”
Questions such as “What is my purpose?” or “Why am I here” often gain importance as we age. These are big intimidating questions and the answers are unique for each individual. Many of our guests on Messy Middlescence have shared their own personal struggles and triumphs with these questions. Today, we discuss a different perspective on purpose which reframes "purpose" with a "little p" versus a "big P”. We at Messy Middlescence did not originate this idea of viewing purpose with a "little p," but it truly resonated with us.
So, it may seem a bit strange, but in our episode today we recommend and discuss a podcast separate from ours which we think does a great job confronting the questions of life purpose and meaning. The podcast is titled “The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos” and the episode we discuss is “How to Find Your Purpose” which features Dr. Jordan Drumet.
Dr. Santos and Dr. Drumet contend that purpose does not need to be some grand goal or need to save the world. Rather, they view purpose with a “little p” and believe that it is the “seemingly small and everyday actions” that can provide purpose and meaning in our lives. Their perspective on purpose with a “little p” makes the question of purpose much more accessible. They give many real-life examples of “little p” along with practical steps and methods to help individuals find their own “little p’s”.
We hope you will listen to their podcast AND our discussion of it. In either order. Some of the ideas you will hear in our episode include:
Our lives do not and should not have one big purpose; it is unrealistic and intimidating;
“little p” purpose involves following and doing the things that bring you joy and fulfillment; most people have many/multiple “little p’s” in their life;
The importance of understanding the differences between our “essential” self and our “social” self (as defined by Martha Beck) and the difficulties of truly listening to our “essential” self;
The danger of losing the sense of joy in an activity or interest when it becomes tied to money or success;
The pressure to do what we excel at or what comes easiest;
The benefits of creating/creativity without worrying about the results;
Resisting the urge to push our children towards a specific path or to force our expectations on to them;
The process of finding “little p’s” in your life can help everyone, regardless of age, income or status (i.e. not just for the wealthy and privileged) but requires time and patience.
The idea of a “life review” before you reach your deathbed.
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[00:22] Tara Bansal: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal and I want to welcome you to season two of of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life. Like adolescence, Middlescence is a time of tremendous change, touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades all start to shift in various ways. Tina and I are figuring this out as we go, and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
[01:22] Tara Bansal: Hello. Hello. This is Tara Conti Bansal, and I'm here with my sister, Christina Conti Donovan. And today is just the two of us talking about a podcast that we recommended in the episode with Dr. Alexa Dare, and it was how to find your purpose from the Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos. Tina and I both listened to this and I just thought it. We both thought it was worth having a discussion. What's interesting to me is I have a good friend who, she even told me from listening to the Messy Middlescence, she's like, you put so much pressure on yourself to come up with a purpose. And that's a big part of. I feel like I've written about it and this episode talks about purpose. And they, they. We're going to talk about two kind of forms of purpose. Purpose with a capital P and little P. Purpose. But when you say purpose, it brings this pressure and heaviness and kind of even anxiety of like, what is my purpose? Why should I be here? What's, you know, what's the meaning of my life? And the. I feel like that one of the biggest takeaways from this podcast that we are referring to was to let go of that. And there isn't just one big purpose. And even those that often go after and feel like they know what their big purpose is, it's often goal oriented. And then once they achieve it, they don't have that satisfaction that they expected once they did achieve it. The podcast refers to a book called the Purpose Code. I have not read the book. This is just Tina and my thoughts both from listening to the podcast. Tina, what was something that stood out to you? That.
[03:41] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I mean, it's something that you brought up in the introduction, but this idea of purpose having a little pee. And I fully agree with everything you said, just people say, think of purpose, and it becomes this, oh, I have to find a meaning in my life. And they do a really good job talking about how you don't have to save the world. And this idea of a little P in purpose I found reassuring and accessible. And I think a lot easier to think about than purpose with a capital P. I agree.
[04:26] Tara Bansal: Something that stood out to me, and part of this is my life coaching, is that culturally, we were often influenced not just by social media, but by our parents, by. By just culture of. For what we should with a capital S be doing and the responsibility for that. And the. The author talks about how he. He was a doctor, and he took that on, you know, because his father died, who was a doctor, and he thought that was going to provide meaning. I just keep going to. And I'm. I'm hearing it in multiple places of, like, listening to ourselves. And Martha Beck, who I just went through her life coach training, the essential self versus your social self. And so the social self teaches you these cultural norms and expectations. And your essential self may not always agree with or be in alignment with the social self. And that was what stood out to me, the little P purpose. He talks about just following and doing the things that bring you joy or that interest you. And instead of, I feel like the things you think you should be doing, and even the should is like, having this one big thing instead of, like, lots of little things that you enjoy. Am I making any sense, Tina?
[06:21] Tina Donovan: No, I think definitely when I finished listening, that was the one question I was sort of like, oh, they talk about purpose with a little P. But, you know, this idea that why can't you have more than one purpose? They definitely keep talking about purpose in a singular sense. And I walked away from that being like, oh, like, even if it's a little P, it's still one. Whereas I think it's more realistic that maybe you have multiple little purposes in your life. And when you talk about them as being joys, I think that makes a lot more sense, because even the way.
[07:01] Tara Bansal: He described it, I felt like he does palliative care, he does blogging, he does a podcast, he does you, you know, multiple different things. And I don't know, part of me was thinking, like, this podcast in itself for me is a little P. Like, we're not doing this expecting to make a lot of money or, you know, like, with a financial goal or anything like that. But I honestly look forward to and thoroughly have enjoyed the interviews and what I've learned. And getting to have these conversations with you, Tina, and with the other people on the show, what comes to mind for you as some of your little peas?
[07:58] Tina Donovan: Yeah, it's interesting. They give tips on finding how to find your purpose or your little pea. And, you know, one of the things that he talks about is to look back on your childhood and think about the things that you enjoyed doing as a child. And they're pretty upfront. That was one of the things I liked about them, is they said not all of these tips are going to work for you. And, you know, some people say there wasn't anything in my childhood that stands out that I still want to do. And then there's another tip for those people. But, yeah, I mean, definitely for me, you know, working with plants and flowers and being outside is something that I remember from a young age, just always being interested in. And, I mean, it's definitely something I'm lucky enough to be able to fill my life with because I have time. But I think no matter what, that's always going to be a piece of my life that is a little p. You know, I can't say what it is, but caring for plants just brings me joy.
[09:16] Tara Bansal: When I. One of the things I was thinking for you, and you could tell me where I'm wrong, but, like, I just see us in our house in Hudson, and you. You were so into music, and, like, I feel like you introduced me to.
[09:39] Tina Donovan: All the great bands. I never really realized that. Yeah, I mean, music, too. Although I think that's the thing. It's a little. For me, it's. Music is a little intimidating in my family because I have. I'm surrounded by a lot of musicians. I mean, I have talented children, and my husband is a talented musician. So I guess it's made me view the way music is a part of my life in a different way, because I'm not a participant. I'm more of a listener, you know, enjoyer. Enjoyer. Yeah. Whereas for some people in my household, music is something they do in terms of creating, you know, Creating. Creating. So it's a little different from that.
[10:28] Tara Bansal: But did. I mean, you played so many instruments, like.
[10:33] Tina Donovan: Yeah, but you can play a lot of instruments and not have. I don't know. It's also, I guess, interesting, too. I mean, the way I approach music and the way I watch my husband and my children approach music is very different. Um, in terms of. Yeah. How they listen and.
[10:53] Tara Bansal: Yeah, but that was just Something that stood out. When I think of your childhood and you were more, you know, like, more teenager, but how much you enjoyed music and we're so cutting edge and.
[11:11] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I wouldn't say that, but. Oh, I feel like. I don't know, what are some of your little P's?
[11:17] Tara Bansal: I mean, I've started asking people what. What they enjoyed and what they did in their childhood, including, like, my own kids, like, what is it that you really love to do? The one thing that stood out to me was I used to do collages where I would cut out, you know, like, words or pictures and. And usually it was words, but I would spend hours, like, getting them all to fit together. So, like, every millimeter of the page was covered with these words that I liked and created something. It definitely wasn't like, a beautiful work of art, but. But I enjoyed doing that. And I. I don't know. I don't know what that, you know, sounds.
[12:07] Tina Donovan: I remember you doing that, but. Yeah, I mean, even just hearing you describe it, it sounds like you would lose track of time.
[12:13] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[12:14] Tina Donovan: Doing that. And that's, you know, that's one of the things they talk about as a child is when you immerse yourself in something and you're enjoying it so much, you lose a sense of time and. Yeah. What are activities that do that for you now? You know, try to recreate that.
[12:32] Tara Bansal: And I think for me, a little bit of a takeaway is to do some more creative things without any expectation of, like, a result of, like, having something to, like, even show for it, but just to enjoy the process. I just know, for me, I get the critical voice. This is so not good. Why are you even bothering? You know, But I think to go back to more creativity and play with that as a little pea, if I had time. Yeah. I mean, another little P for me is just singing. I'm a terrible singer.
[13:22] Tina Donovan: And yet we have friends here that are professional singers. And I remember they teach too private lessons. And I remember asking them once, like, you know, can you pretty much teach anybody to sing, you know, no matter how bad they are, and. And they are convinced that you can sing even if you think you can't, that proper instruction and time, that you can become a reasonable singer. So maybe that's something you should.
[13:53] Tara Bansal: It is. It's on my list.
[13:54] Tina Donovan: And do some voice lessons. And it might not be.
[14:00] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[14:01] Tina Donovan: As difficult as you think, but that's how. And then I think once you have some confidence, you can join a choir or, you know, you can kind of do some things maybe that are, but.
[14:13] Tara Bansal: Even that, like just singing in the car by myself.
[14:17] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[14:17] Tara Bansal: Trying to think of other. I mean, and that's the podcast talks about. And I love how they gave multiple options.
[14:26] Tina Donovan: Right.
[14:26] Tara Bansal: Of trying to explore and figure out what. You know, if you don't have anything that jumps out from your childhood, then it's.
[14:36] Tina Donovan: Yeah, they call it spaghetti method. So just start trying things.
[14:40] Tara Bansal: Trying multiple things. Anything that interests you or you think could possibly interest you, give it a try and see what happens.
[14:50] Tina Donovan: And if it doesn't, walk away. I mean, I know that. I mean, one of the other things that stood out to me and this is just as a parent and they talk about how children take on things they think they should do because of their parents. And it, it is hard. I mean, you want your children to find their own path, but you also want them to be able to financially support themselves. And sometimes they struggle to find what that path is. And I don't know, I think that it was a good reminder that to kind of give your children the time and space to find out what they want to do and maybe only assist them when you really feel like they.
[15:45] Tara Bansal: Need it to that point. I agree. I think were asked to specialize so early and I think that's a shame, you know, like even both academically and sports and everything. But I just wish we all could experiment and feel comfortable trying more and different things. I mean, if you find something you love, that's great, but. But I just do feel like there's this pressure of going, yeah.
[16:22] Tina Donovan: I mean, when you talked about sort of that social pressure, I think that's there. I mean, you know, you as a parent of two high school graduates and almost two college graduates, you know, you hear what other people's kids are doing and you hear about, you know, it's hard not to sometimes feel like, oh, like my kid doesn't have a high powered, high salary job, you know, coming out of college, or, you know, my child doesn't want to do this or doesn't want to do that. And it's, it is, it's hard sometimes to just kind of be like, nope, that's not their path, you know, and to not worry, I guess, or feel like they're doing something wrong because they're doing something different maybe.
[17:12] Tara Bansal: No. And I think that is important to. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish why we're doing things or you don't see the filter because it's there. And I feel like socially we're all in that water that you almost don't notice the water. Right. And I feel like the other to me is there's often a go after what you're good at. And so that was for me. I went into math and science because I was good at it, but I wish I hadn't. I shouldn't say that. I mean, like, I just feel like my essential self doesn't find joy in that. Love engineering. Right. Like, and it took me a while to kind of listen to myself, and that's part of what I feel like I'm trying to do. And I want this podcast to encourage other people to do. There's a. A coaching exercise. I can't remember if we've talked about it, but. And it relates to the podcast, you know, in. He called it embrace the Art of subtraction. But the exercise is like, keep track of the things and even the people that fill you up and those things that you procrastinate on, you dread you like, you know, and even people that drain you. And so he talks about doing more of the things that fill you up, and how can you delegate, get rid of or make choices that decrease the other things that you don't like? Right. Like, I don't know. And it sounds pretty simple, but I feel like you can always keep doing that for fine tuning. And there's lots of things we think we can't get rid of or we should be doing. And you can, if you really, you know, are creative and think about it. What's your reaction to that, Tina?
[19:29] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I found helpful in this podcast was they were pretty clear that this is not for people of privilege or people of a certain amount of money that have the freedom that, you know, this is very much. These are exercises anybody can do. And if you take the time to do it and don't expect overnight or in a couple months success, that it's something that might take years to accomplish and, you know, to sort of be patient and be creative and to work through it. I don't know. I thought that was one of the things that I was happy to hear.
[20:19] Tara Bansal: He said it took him four years from basically deciding he did not want to be a doctor until he was able to really step away from that. And that's the other is he talks about trying to do things at the margins, like, at no matter what your job is, talk to the people around you. Of this part, I like this part. I don't. How can, you know, I do more?
[20:45] Tina Donovan: How can I do more and less of this. Yeah. I was impressed with just sort of how comprehensive it was while still kind of just not being too nitty gritty. Yeah.
[21:00] Tara Bansal: I just thought it was really practical.
[21:04] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[21:05] Tara Bansal: In recommendations they had and how to. And it was well organized, too.
[21:12] Tina Donovan: I mean, the one thing they talked about, a life review. He is a hospice. Hospice, I was gonna say. Yeah. He is a hospice doctor. And he talked about one of the things they do with patients is this life review, which is a series of questions I wish they actually had spent more time. He mentions a few of the questions, but I'd almost like to see.
[21:37] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[21:37] Tina Donovan: What is the 10 same reactions, five questions. Because he does talk about how he doesn't understand why a life review isn't done before your deathbed. That this is something people. It's a tool that people could be doing throughout their lives to make sure, you know, when they get to their deathbed that they're in a good place. And so, yeah, that was the one thing that I wish they had either published or talked more about. And I guess maybe we could research and see maybe it is out there. But that was one of the things that. And maybe it's in the book.
[22:13] Tara Bansal: I don't know. Like. But I had the exact same reaction of, like, I want a copy of the Life review. What are some of the questions? And it talks about, you know, looking at regrets or things you wish. And to me, that's, you know, so then with that information, what can you do now, right. To, like, either start pursuing it or making changes, even at the margins, you know, of. Of that. It was interesting. I will put this in the show notes, but I listened to just kind of by chance, 10% happier with Dan Harris. And he had an episode with Jonathan Fields. I can't remember the title of it, but it was very much also about finding your spark and what lights you up. And a big part of that was also, it's not just for people with money and privilege that anyone can and should be doing this to find joy in their life. And he has a quiz or a test online. I think it's like, find your sparkology or something. And it's supposed to help you know better what those sparks have. Yeah. Those sparks or what, really. And I haven't taken the test, but I definitely want to. And we'll include that because I'm just interested to see what it says and what new information.
[23:59] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I'm interested, too.
[24:00] Tara Bansal: Most people said they just felt like it was reaffirming or confirming almost, like.
[24:07] Tina Donovan: Things what they already Knew.
[24:08] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[24:09] Tina Donovan: But then.
[24:10] Tara Bansal: Yeah. To have it more in black and white, which is how I think of the strengths finder. Like, you take this test and it tells you what your top five strengths are. And when you hear them, it just like gave almost like a label to something that I know about myself, but made it more concrete and more clear. Yeah.
[24:34] Tina Donovan: And gave you the vocabulary to talk about it. Yeah.
[24:38] Tara Bansal: And language. Yeah. Around it. Well, anything else that you.
[24:46] Tina Donovan: No, just. It's definitely worth a listen and I think, hopefully people will give it a try. I think it's. It's definitely. It's not long. It's what.
[25:02] Tara Bansal: Yeah, it's less than an hour. And I. I love the message. I thought it was. Yeah. Of value. You know, it talks about that your. Your little. And I want to keep going back to that. Like your little P. Purposes are yours alone instead of the expectations that are set all around you. Tina, I remember you. Me, I think it was. I don't know if it was you, me and Cindy and even if Amy was in the car, but we were talking about, like, what we would do, what we would love to do, if we could do anything. Do you remember this conversation? And then we went to, like, then when you have to do it for money, it kind of ruins it. And the more I. Because I keep going back to that, like, wondering if that is true. Like people who love to cook, but then when suddenly they have to do it to get a paycheck. And I think this is very true of artists that they love doing art, but they don't want to be told, like, this is what you need to produce. And with deadlines and expectations that. That can just bring the joy out of it.
[26:24] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[26:25] Tara Bansal: Take all the joy out of it. And. And that he talks about, you know, your little Pete purposes should feel abundant. And. And I guess a couple of things is maybe your little P purposes aren't going to be what help you pay the bills, but still how you can include them and find time for them in your life. I don't know. I just. I just always think of how Cindy was saying, like, once you have to do something for money, it can very much change the joy and the freedom.
[27:07] Tina Donovan: Of it that it brings you. Yeah.
[27:09] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[27:10] Tina Donovan: And so, I mean, I know we're wrapping up, but that is one of the things I feel like is difficult in our society today is the way most jobs are now. I mean, if you make enough money that you can only work one job, the job is so all consumer encompassing. I mean, you know, people work all the time, especially with our devices, you know, you're working even when you're not supposed to.
[27:44] Tara Bansal: You.
[27:44] Tina Donovan: You end up working email later, you end up working on the weekends. It's hard to take vacations. And, you know, if you're not in a job that pays that well, then you're probably working more than one job. Like, I know, like, teachers often have, like a side gig. And I think one of the things that has happened, you know, you look back in the 50s and 60s, you know, people worked 9 to 5, they didn't have commutes, and they had a lot more time in their life to pursue other things, whether it was being with other people or hobbies or recreation. And I do feel like that is something that is really missing from our. The way our society now is structured with the financial obligations and the way people work. And that's not true for everyone. But I do think it's made it more difficult to just have some little peas in your life in addition to your, you know, your job.
[28:45] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And part of my reaction to that is almost you have to, like, fight against it or, like, really create your boundaries or how to be intentional on, you know, protecting some time for your little peas and how to go about that. I mean, he talked about that. I don't know what study it was, but it said most people have five hours per day to do other things besides work. And I'm sure many of us don't feel like we have five hours, but a little bit of it is to notice where and how you are spending your time and where can you make the time to do more of the things you love? And I. I mean, I'll just end with this that he talks about. Just get started. So a little bit, and then you can build momentum as you discover more or you find more joy, then hopefully you will do more and you can find a community that of other people who enjoy that and do that. And that's a big part of this also, is just relationships and connections. But I truly believe we're. I don't know, God wants us to enjoy our life. And so how are. How can we do that? And that's what I'm working on is like, how to do more of the things I love and less of the things I don't. So that. That's like. I feel like the whole message of that podcast, which, yeah, is once again, thank you for listening and till next time, we hope you're doing great.
Today's recommendation is a little redundant, but our recommendation is to listen to the podcast the Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos and this episode, how to find you'd purpose with Dr. Jordan Grummet. That podcast is what we discussed in this episode and is based on Dr. Jordan Grumman's book the Purpose how to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness, and Leave a Lasting Legacy. All things we are all about here at Messy Middlescence. Have a great day.
[31:17] Tina Donovan: For show notes and other information about our podcast, please Visit our website messymiddlesence.com if you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend. And don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us. As always, we hope you will return for more.
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