61. Err on the Side of Presence (Re-release)
“The things that we feel like we can’t do are probably the things that are most important for us to be doing in terms of meaning and meeting other people.”
As we take a short break for the summer, we thought it would be a good time to revisit a few episodes from earlier seasons of Messy Middlescence. If you're a newer listener, this is a chance to discover some conversations you may have missed. And if you've been with us from the beginning, we hope you might find that some of these topics resonate differently when you hear them again.
Our first re-release is the opening episode of Season 2, "Err on the Side of Presence." The theme for Season 2 was grief—in all the different forms it can take and all the different ways it can affect us. The catalyst for this season's theme and opening episode was the sudden death of a close friend of Tina and her husband. Although this episode begins with grief, it is ultimately about something much broader: how we show up for one another, build community, and live lives filled with connection and meaning.
Season 2 of Messy Middlescence begins with a heavy and difficult topic. It may seem like an unusual choice for a season opener, but Tina's family and community had just experienced an unexpected and tragic loss. It was a personal reminder that these middlescence years are often filled with painful and sorrowful events. We may encounter the loss of—not just older family members—but also friends, neighbors, or colleagues. It caused us to think deeply about how we get through times of grief and loss, and how we help the people we love when they are facing unimaginable heartbreak.
Earlier that year, a guest essay published in The New York Times titled "Train Yourself to Always Show Up" by Rabbi Sharon Brous made a profound impression on both Tara and Tina. The essay, excerpted from her book The Amen Effect, was one they had planned to discuss in a future episode. In light of the recent events in Tina's community, the timing felt right to begin the season with these ideas.
In this episode, Tara and Tina explore the beautiful wisdom in Rabbi Brous's essay and reflect on how it can serve as a guiding light during life's most difficult moments. Together they discuss:
The importance of resisting our natural instinct to withdraw—whether we are grieving ourselves or trying to support someone who is.
The need for community and for bearing witness to one another in both joy and suffering.
How losing a close friend can differ from losing a family member, and why those losses are often overlooked.
The loss of rituals and traditions around grief in modern society and what that means for individuals and communities.
As relevant as this conversation felt when we first recorded it, it may feel even more relevant today. We hope you'll listen—or listen again—and be reminded that when someone is hurting, presence matters far more than perfection.
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[00:21] Christina Donovan: We hope you are enjoying your summer Tara and I decided that the summer break would be an ideal time to re release some of our earlier Messy Middlescence episodes.
[00:33] Maybe you are a new listener and haven't yet explored our earlier seasons,
[00:39] or perhaps you've listened to our entire catalog, but some of the topics may resonate differently as things can substantially change in our lives in just a few years.
[00:52] Our first RE release is our opening episode from season two, titled Air on the side of Presence.
[01:00] Our theme for season two was grief and all the different forms it can take and all the different ways it can affect us.
[01:10] The catalyst for both our season two theme and for this episode was the death of a close friend of my husband's and mine.
[01:21] He was an important part of our social circle in our neighborhood and even two years later it is still painful to think about that time and to hear the emotion that was ever present in this episode as Tara and I recorded it.
[01:37] I think the episode has so many important messages,
[01:41] not just about death and grief, but but also about living a life full of connection and meaning.
[01:52] We hope during these days of summer that these RE releases can be a source of reflection, contemplation,
[02:00] and even inspiration.
[02:03] So here is Air on the side of Presence,
[02:07] Episode one from Season two
[02:10] Christina Donovan: Welcome back to Season two of Messy Middlescence. This is Christina or Tina Donovan and I am here with my sister Tara.
[02:19] Hello Bansal Tara Conti Bansel for our first episode of our second season of Messy Middlescence,
[02:29] we hope everyone had a terrific summer and instead of maybe talking about summer and fun things,
[02:39] we're going to just jump in with both feet into some really difficult topics. Today we're not going to ease in at all.
[02:49] So I guess we apologize up front for that.
[02:53] But today we're going to be discussing grief and community and some really hard stuff around death of loved ones.
[03:04] I'd like to say in discussing topics for this upcoming season,
[03:09] I pushed really hard to begin with this difficult topic in light of a recent personal and communal tragedy that we had here recently on College Hill.
[03:23] We talked a little bit last season about how these middlescent years can be full of very difficult and sorrowful events.
[03:37] Often we're dealing with the loss of parents and older family members,
[03:42] but also sometimes that of friends and neighbors and co workers.
[03:48] And I guess what we want to talk about today is how you and we get through difficult times of grief and loss and how do we help people that we care about who have suffered a devastating loss.
[04:08] And I think Terry and I both know, there's no one answer and everyone's experience is different.
[04:15] But one of the things that we want to talk about in light of this are some ideas, I guess is how I would describe it that were discussed in a New York Times op ed titled Train Yourself to Always Show Up.
[04:33] This was an article that was written by Rabbi Sharon Brauss.
[04:39] And when I first read the piece,
[04:42] which is actually an excerpt from her book, which is called the Amen Effect,
[04:48] I immediately texted a link to Tara.
[04:51] It was something that really resonated for me last January.
[04:55] I mean, It's I guess 8 or 9 months old at this point when I first read it. But in light of some of the events and circumstances of the last month or so, I have found myself going back to it over and over.
[05:10] We're going to start, I guess, by discussing some of the things around that and then kind of branch out from there.
[05:17] Tara Bansal: And yeah, I mean, Tina did send me the article and I love it. Like I've now read it probably five or six times. And each time it's so beautifully written, but also just so touching.
[05:35] As Tina said, we want to have some deep conversations here.
[05:40] And my usual disclaimer, I am a crier. I, you know, get teary very easily.
[05:48] Just put your seatbelt on and deal with that, because that's who I am.
[05:54] Why don't Tina go ahead and I'll let you start with the article if you want, and. Or what's happened that kind of brought this to the forefront for you and your family?
[06:05] Christina Donovan: Well, the article begins by describing an ancient Jewish practice from the third century.
[06:15] And it talks about this ritual where they would have,
[06:20] she says, hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, I don't really know that there was that many people involved, but they would gather in Jerusalem and they would enter into the Temple Mount, which I guess was a huge temple with this huge plaza in it.
[06:37] As people would enter the plaza, they would turn right in mass and kind of walk counterclockw rise around the plaza. So you had one, most of the people are traveling counterclockwise in a circle.
[06:53] But people who were brokenhearted is really how she says it. People who were mourning, were sick,
[07:03] were just suffering,
[07:06] would turn to the left,
[07:08] and so they would be going clockwise. And so you have these two circles of people, one who are doing okay and one who are not doing okay. And as they would encounter each other,
[07:20] the people who are going counterclockwise would address each of the person who was hurting or brokenhearted and speak to them, offering a blessing Or a word of comfort.
[07:33] So I'm going to quote Sharon Browse here from her article directly, and she says this timeless wisdom speaks to what it means to be human in a world of pain.
[07:46] This year you walk the path of the anguished.
[07:49] Perhaps next year it will be me.
[07:53] I hold your broken heart, knowing that one day you will hold mine.
[08:00] I really love the idea and the description of this ritual,
[08:06] but it's really her words about grief and community that touched my heart in this article.
[08:13] And I think for those of us who are in our 50s,
[08:17] I mean, you just. You start seeing people around you being affected by sickness and illness and loss and this idea that,
[08:31] you know it's coming in your own life. I mean, it's just a matter of time, given our age.
[08:38] And I think that I love those words that,
[08:42] you know,
[08:44] in. In coming and helping you or in comforting you will prepare me and in a way, you know, comfort and help me. And it's. This idea of community is so important.
[08:58] Tara Bansal: What. One of the things that jumped out for me and this ritual highlighted it is that part of life is sometimes you're going to be.
[09:14] I call it the inner circle, or in the circle where you're grieving and asking for and needing help.
[09:21] And to me,
[09:25] in a way, I wonder, like, if that helped normalize that.
[09:28] Like the actual being vulnerable and admitting,
[09:35] Christina Donovan: like, I'm mourning, I'm struggling. This is hard for me, right?
[09:41] Christina Donovan: This call for help or this call for support. No, I definitely think that's true.
[09:49] Tara Bansal: And I know for me. Go ahead. For me, when I'm struggling, I. I do withdraw and. And not engage. And so I think.
[10:08] Christina Donovan: And I think that's her. One of the major points I think she really tries to make in this
[10:14] Tara Bansal: article,
[10:16] Christina Donovan: I mean, she says right up front, like,
[10:20] do not go home. Do not take your broken heart and isolate. Like,
[10:25] you know,
[10:26] step out.
[10:28] And I think it is very.
[10:31] I don't think you're alone. I think that the natural instinct in people is to withdraw.
[10:36] And it's also natural. I think our instinct is to withdraw from other people, give them space, give them privacy, like,
[10:45] give them time to work through their grief. And what she's saying is, no, like, you really have to work against this tendency and this tendency. And it's hard.
[10:56] And that's why, I mean, I. I love the article,
[10:59] the title of the article, train yourself to never.
[11:04] I mean, to always show up this idea that these things aren't easy and that you have to work at it, you have to force it, and that
[11:15] Tara Bansal: Is a training, like.
[11:16] Christina Donovan: Right.
[11:17] Tara Bansal: It's not natural. It's not in a way.
[11:19] Christina Donovan: So when these things happen, you have the muscle, like you have the memory muscle to kind of work through some of these really difficult things.
[11:33] Tara Bansal: But that's also, to me,
[11:37] and maybe it's just like a craving or a desire for more rituals that help make it easier.
[11:46] Maybe that won't make. Wouldn't make a difference. But I.
[11:51] I mean,
[11:53] I think that's part of what the Jewish traditions and the church, you know, that was, I feel like, used to be more central and part of the neighborhood and the community helped provide more of those, you know,
[12:11] kind of rituals and structure of what to do.
[12:15] It's. I don't know if it's that we're afraid to be vulnerable or we're. We don't know what to do. If it's all the above, you know,
[12:25] Christina Donovan: it is all the above. I mean,
[12:27] one of the things I heard recently, we were at a service for a friend and their family was saying how this was the first death that they've had in their family in 18 years.
[12:43] Which sounds like a lot, but I don't like in terms of the sheer number of years of not having a death of a close family member.
[12:52] But I don't think that's that unusual anymore. I think that people are living longer. Like 100 years ago, when you were in a small community,
[13:02] you were exposed to death and the rituals around mourning and support way more than we are now, I think.
[13:11] Tara Bansal: Yeah. I mean, like a hundred years ago, the number of children who died.
[13:17] Christina Donovan: Right.
[13:17] Tara Bansal: And the families that experienced that was vastly different than it is now. Right. Like with medical technology and different things, I mean, it's more rare for a family to lose a child.
[13:33] And like you're saying, it's just doesn't happen as often in the way it used to.
[13:39] Christina Donovan: Well, just.
[13:40] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[13:40] Christina Donovan: I think people used to grow up watching these rituals and traditions, and we just. We don't. We just don't anymore. I feel like when something happens, it's. It's a tragedy and it's a big deal, but people aren't equipped with like, this muscle memory or these.
[13:59] These practices and rituals on what to do. And I think that.
[14:06] That not knowing what to do is also a part of why we withdraw and why we pull back when we should be reaching forward.
[14:15] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[14:17] I mean, one of the quotes that I love from the book was,
[14:22] you know, the.
[14:23] The healthier people,
[14:25] you know,
[14:26] who encountered someone in pain would look into that person's eyes and inquire what happened to you?
[14:34] Christina Donovan: Why does your heart ache?
[14:36] Tara Bansal: 1 like to look the people in
[14:39] Christina Donovan: the eye, but the other, even just the question of, like, I want to know, be curious.
[14:47] Tara Bansal: And she talks about, you know, the awkwardness and the importance of presence, of just being there to witness.
[14:58] Christina Donovan: I know it's similar to the quote you just had, but the, The. The one quote that really speaks to me is when she says,
[15:08] it is an expression of both love and sacred responsibility to turn to another person in their moment of deepest anguish and say,
[15:19] your sorrow may scare me,
[15:22] it may unsettle me, but I will not abandon you.
[15:27] Christina Donovan: I will meet your grief with love. That's just really powerful to me to acknowledge that.
[15:34] Christina Donovan: I mean, part of the reason I think people do pull back is this.
[15:40] It is unsettling, it is hard, and it's a reminder of what we will one day go through if we're not experiencing it right now.
[15:51] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[15:52] Tara Bansal: And I know for me, there's this fear and doubt, like, will I be able to handle it?
[16:02] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I know. I think that's true. I think that's. And I think that's normal.
[16:07] Like, nobody can know how you're going to react in situations like this and how you cope.
[16:14] And that fear of just. Of the pain and the unknowing,
[16:19] it's hard.
[16:22] I guess one of the things, too, that I wanted to talk about today that we lost in our community.
[16:30] He was a friend of my husband's and part of our social circle circle, a pillar in our community. Really, everybody knew him, and he died very suddenly. One of the things that I think for people our age that is really difficult is when you lose a peer or a friend and how different this is than losing a family member.
[16:55] I know for us, my husband, when he found out about the death of his very close friend, like, he was off. He was on vacation, actually,
[17:05] for that week.
[17:06] And I think back and I'm just like, thank God he didn't have to go into work.
[17:12] You know, he was able to take a couple days and just kind of grieve and be with other people who had.
[17:24] Were experiencing a similar loss.
[17:28] But it just pointed out to me, like, how when you lose a friend, there is no, like, there's no bereavement policy. I mean, I. I don't think he could call his work and be like, I can't go to work today.
[17:39] Like, I lost a close friend.
[17:41] Tara Bansal: And yet you get one. If a family member were to pass
[17:44] Christina Donovan: away, they give you.
[17:45] Christina Donovan: Right.
[17:46] Christina Donovan: I think that most people get some time off when it's a family member.
[17:51] And that's the thing. I mean, the.
[17:53] The pain and the grief can be just as overwhelming and significant as a family member.
[18:02] Tara Bansal: Sometimes more.
[18:03] Christina Donovan: Sometimes more. I mean, you know, I think particularly for my husband, Matt, I mean,
[18:09] this is somebody who he saw regularly one to two times a week. I mean, he probably spent more time with him than he has with his brothers in the last 10 years.
[18:22] I'm not saying that he's not close with his brothers, but I'm just trying to show that.
[18:26] I mean, he.
[18:27] This is going to be a. It is. It's a huge hole in his life right now.
[18:33] And I think it's hard to even express that loss with family members or with people. Like, I lost a friend.
[18:42] But it's such a generic term, and it holds so many degrees of close friend, not so close friend,
[18:52] best friend.
[18:53] Tara Bansal: Like, you know,
[18:56] Christina Donovan: So I think sometimes people don't even know how to react when you say I lost a friend. You know, they say, I'm sorry, but I don't.
[19:04] Sometimes I think it's difficult just with that terminology to really convey the depth of a loss and the depth of your grief, you know,
[19:14] And I'm being
[19:15] Tara Bansal: honest and curious, like, of what. What to say besides I'm sorry, like to ask questions questions or not ask questions,
[19:28] what did that person mean to you? Or how are you handling this?
[19:33] Tina, if just you have any advice or what you've experienced most recently.
[19:38] Christina Donovan: No, but I do think,
[19:40] like, I know when Matt talked to his family members about the loss of Paul,
[19:46] I think his parents asking, like, how, you know, how close were you or what was your relationship like, your friendship?
[19:54] Christina Donovan: Like.
[19:56] Christina Donovan: Like, I think those things would have really helped him. And instead it was just sort of like, oh, I'm sorry, and they moved on.
[20:04] And I think that people,
[20:08] even.
[20:10] I do think people want to talk
[20:12] Tara Bansal: about it and to. I mean, I think what I'm hearing, the takeaway is to give those people an opportunity to talk about it, the person. And if they say they don't want to talk about it, then you can.
[20:27] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[20:27] Tara Bansal: But to create an opportunity and an openness to ask the questions of, like, what. What happened to you? How are you feeling? I'm here to listen and witness.
[20:46] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[20:47] Tara Bansal: And I know, Tina, you said how important to be with other people who are going through that do understand,
[20:58] right. Like that they are feeling the same way or similar way to have each other in those moments in time,
[21:08] especially right at first.
[21:11] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I think that's been the one,
[21:14] you know,
[21:16] One thing that has really helped, I know that the day that we got the news, I mean,
[21:24] Matt is lucky. He has this very close group of men. And I mean, they all got together that afternoon and that evening, and then they were together that Friday,
[21:36] following Friday. And then, I mean, even after the service, they all congregated. And I know that they are continuing. I think they're really reaching out to one another and checking on each other.
[21:50] But I know that that's the only thing that has really seemed to help him is to kind of be with other people that are experiencing the same loss.
[22:00] Tara Bansal: You know,
[22:01] I know from, like, I do work with widows, and if there are structures and traditions, a lot of them happen right at first and that a lot of times the harder part is later.
[22:18] Like,
[22:20] you know,
[22:21] Sharon Salzberg. Is that how you, you know, in her book, she talked about after her husband died.
[22:27] Christina Donovan: Oh, Sheryl Sandberg, yeah.
[22:29] Tara Bansal: Oh, Sheryl Sandberg.
[22:31] Her husband died suddenly on vacation.
[22:33] And as the year progressed, and some people may have felt like she should have moved on or whatever, but she wasn't like.
[22:45] And,
[22:46] and she felt isolated and alone during that time because I think one, people were afraid to bring it up,
[22:58] but.
[22:59] But I feel like that's the harder part is as time goes on,
[23:05] you still may be suffering and struggling and either one, being vulnerable about that, but two, the acceptance from other people of that struggle.
[23:18] A month out,
[23:19] six months out, the year anniversary, all, you know, the first Christmas without,
[23:25] you know, certain people all brings up new emotions or refreshes the emotions. And then I.
[23:35] I heard this, like. And then almost every death after that brings this, like,
[23:43] new wave of grieving that incorporates and includes the previous grieving.
[23:50] Christina Donovan: I've never heard that. That's. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me, but. But that. That, yeah.
[23:56] Tara Bansal: Building on.
[23:58] And maybe that's some of that. What hasn't. You haven't fully processed or you haven't, you know, like,
[24:04] you never.
[24:05] I mean, people say you never fully move on.
[24:08] Christina Donovan: I didn't read Sheryl Sandberg's book, but I saw a clip where she. She talks about that. And I mean,
[24:17] she talked to just about in this clip how,
[24:22] like you said, several months after her husband's death,
[24:25] you know, she said she'd be at school picking up her kids, and people that she used to talk to wouldn't even say hello anymore. And that's where she said she really started feeling like, this isolation or this stigma.
[24:38] And I mean, I think she got it. She was like, people don't know what to say so they don't say anything.
[24:45] And I totally get that. I mean, I.
[24:48] I think it goes back to this idea where you withdraw or you don't reach out because you're afraid to say the wrong thing. You're afraid you're gonna remind them. Yeah.
[24:59] Yeah.
[25:00] And I don't know. That's where reading, like, Sharon browse's article,
[25:06] she is. She just keeps going back to, like,
[25:10] reach out,
[25:11] you know, don't hold back. Err on the side of trying to be there. Everybody says the wrong thing at some time. Like, it's not about what you say. It's about trying presence the witness, the.
[25:25] You know, trying to make the connection and to. To let them know that you're there.
[25:31] Because it is hard. I don't know. I. I just. I do really feel like. I always feel like I'm gonna say the wrong thing, so I don't say anything.
[25:40] And.
[25:41] Tara Bansal: And that's worse, basically, I feel. But that's right.
[25:43] Christina Donovan: I mean, that's exactly what they're saying not to do.
[25:46] Christina Donovan: And.
[25:48] Christina Donovan: And that's why I. I mean, I really do feel like this article was a very, like, it was like a guiding light. Like, these are the things you should do,
[25:57] you know, and.
[25:58] And if you are the person that is hurting, these are the things you should do. Like, they're. They go hand in hand together.
[26:06] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[26:06] Tara Bansal: And it. I just keep going back to. I feel like for me,
[26:11] showing up when you're hurting feels so hard.
[26:18] And I know that about myself.
[26:20] And one.
[26:22] One time in particular, I just remember, like,
[26:26] after losing a pregnancy and I just was really, really struggling and like,
[26:33] Christina Donovan: a good friend just called and it meant a lot. Like, I didn't. I wouldn't. I would never have picked up the phone to call her because I didn't feel up to it.
[26:44] Tara Bansal: And I can even see me, like, depending on the moment, I may not
[26:49] Christina Donovan: have taken the call,
[26:51] but I did.
[26:53] And I felt like it was so helpful. Like, I just honestly remember,
[26:58] like,
[27:00] how much that meant to be and talking to her.
[27:04] Tara Bansal: And the article talks about people who.
[27:09] Who you can trust to, like, hold your heart tenderly to.
[27:13] So I think that that is something also,
[27:17] like, in the line of doing this tradition.
[27:21] She doesn't really. I guess it's an assumption that everyone will. But I think of in my day to day of, like, who you feel comfortable being your,
[27:34] you know.
[27:35] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[27:36] Tara Bansal: Upset self with.
[27:38] Christina Donovan: Yeah,
[27:41] Christina Donovan: I think that's true. I know for me, just with the events of the past week, I mean,
[27:47] I. We have some families here on the hill that have just had a lot of sorrowful events.
[27:54] And I mean,
[27:56] I have made myself call and just be like, are you okay? Like, how are you doing? And I don't know if it helps or not, but that article has really motivated you to kind of be more outside myself, like,
[28:14] place that text swing by. I mean, in our neighborhood, there's a lot of swinging by, you know, knocking on the door,
[28:21] just calling,
[28:22] you know, I think that it just seems like it's a very simple thing to do,
[28:30] but it is. It's hard. Like, it really.
[28:34] You do have to really force yourself.
[28:36] At least for me,
[28:38] it goes outside my comfort zone.
[28:40] Tara Bansal: No, even for me, like, I.
[28:44] I feel like if Matt's family member had died, I would have sent a card.
[28:51] And I haven't sent a card because 1. I'm not quite sure exactly what to say.
[28:56] Christina Donovan: And yet that's the point to this is like, don't worry about what to say. Just do something.
[29:04] Tara Bansal: Right.
[29:04] Christina Donovan: Just do something.
[29:05] Christina Donovan: Just act.
[29:06] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[29:07] Tara Bansal: I mean, and the other one word of wisdom that I is, instead of saying tell me how I can help is just like, drop off a dinner and let them know it's there.
[29:21] Like,
[29:22] try to take all decisions out and. And maybe they don't eat the dinner or whatever, but at least I feel like it's an expression of support and care.
[29:34] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[29:36] Tara Bansal: Like to be specific and try to do something instead of asking them. Right.
[29:42] Christina Donovan: Because most people, if they are asked,
[29:45] Tara Bansal: they're not going to say anything.
[29:46] Christina Donovan: I'm fine. Yeah. Or it's okay.
[29:50] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[29:50] Christina Donovan: Which I think people are very happy to hear. Like, oh, they're doing okay. They don't need.
[29:57] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Which is, I think, also part of our society. Like, how many times when somebody asks, how are you?
[30:03] You just say, yeah. Like, that's the cultural thing. When many of us are not fine right in that moment. Or.
[30:13] But you're not going to share that necessarily and get into it.
[30:18] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I mean, she says another one of my favorite quotes, like,
[30:22] showing up for one another doesn't require heroic gestures. It means training ourselves to approach even when our instinct tells us to withdraw.
[30:31] It means going to the funeral and to the house of mourning. It also means going to the wedding
[30:37] Christina Donovan: and to the birthday dinner.
[30:39] Christina Donovan: Reach out in your strength, Step forward in your vulnerability. Err on the side of presence. It's so beautiful what she writes.
[30:49] Tara Bansal: It is so beautiful. Like, I can't say that enough.
[30:54] But it's also, to me,
[30:57] of the showing up when you feel strong or when you're good. Enough.
[31:05] Right. Like,
[31:06] that it takes both sides.
[31:09] And I think.
[31:12] I don't know, that's another of,
[31:16] I'm a homebody. And.
[31:19] And yet it's also to be there for the celebrations and for the other things,
[31:26] to enjoy the joy of life, too.
[31:32] Christina Donovan: Right.
[31:33] Tara Bansal: When you can. And to be there. I don't know. I'm not expressing it well, but.
[31:40] Christina Donovan: No, but I. I do think it's.
[31:42] In our society,
[31:44] we're also busy.
[31:46] Like,
[31:48] we're all tired. You know what I mean? And it does. It takes effort, whether it is going to the birthday celebration or going to the dinner. I mean, it does.
[31:58] It's. Get off your sofa, don't stop scrolling on your phone. Like,
[32:03] the things that we feel like we can't do are probably the things that are most important for us to be doing,
[32:10] you know, in terms of meaning other people.
[32:14] And.
[32:15] Because ultimately, like, those are the things that are going to get us through these sorrowful events and they're going to be there. Nobody escapes it.
[32:26] Christina Donovan: Right.
[32:26] Tara Bansal: And that's part of what I loved about this tradition, is you are going to have times of being.
[32:36] Of grieving, of struggle, struggling. And. Yeah. And that's a fact of life.
[32:42] And to accept and ask for help and to show up.
[32:49] And. Yeah, I just know for me to show up, you know, and that's the.
[32:56] The title of it.
[32:58] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Train yourself.
[32:59] Tara Bansal: Train yourself to always show up.
[33:02] And to me, it's. I. What stands out each of those words. Train, we talked about that. Like, this doesn't come naturally. There is some effort and going against your instinct always.
[33:16] So, like, consistently.
[33:19] And then the showing up,
[33:21] instead of, like,
[33:22] doing it right or being perfect, it's more,
[33:25] you know, presence.
[33:27] The presence.
[33:28] Christina Donovan: The attempt.
[33:29] Tara Bansal: The. Yeah, the effort. The actual being there instead of the doing it right.
[33:36] It's just the actual effort to be there.
[33:40] So each of those, I think, is important.
[33:43] And it is. It's just a really great article that I hope people take a look at. And it touches you as much as it touched Tina and I,
[33:54] because, I mean, like, yeah, it's now been several months and it just keeps coming up in multiple ways.
[34:01] Christina Donovan: For me,
[34:02] like I said, for me, it's like, especially with the recent events,
[34:09] when I talk about it being a guiding light, I just.
[34:13] I really mean that. Like, I keep going back to it and it's. It's an inspiration and it's almost like a guide. Like, these are the things you should be doing.
[34:23] Tara Bansal: I mean, we would love to hear from you on recommendations you have during what you needed or what you did to help others in times of struggle or grief.
[34:38] Would love to hear your stories.
[34:40] We want we want this to be a two way street.
[34:45] So any sharing would be greatly appreciated by both Tina and I on on this. Yeah, as Tina said, we jumped in with both feet to a pretty heavy, deep emotional topic,
[35:06] but we feel like this was important to us and that's part of why we started with this because it is what is first of mind right now and we wanted to talk about it.
[35:21] What else, Tina, for you?
[35:24] Christina Donovan: No, I think you summed it up pretty well. For people who are interested, Sharon Grouse's book the Amen Effect goes into a lot more detail.
[35:36] It's definitely worth checking out.
[35:38] I have also watched her interviewed. You can find clips on YouTube and she's a very dynamic,
[35:46] charismatic speaker.
[35:49] So that might also be something that if you're interested in,
[35:53] we can put some links in our show notes. But that might also be something worth following up on if if you were as captivated by some of the things from her article as we were.
[36:07] Tara Bansal: And in the show notes we'll also put links to a couple of poems that both Tina and I liked and identified with in addition.
[36:17] But yeah,
[36:21] if you are struggling,
[36:25] reach out.
[36:26] If you had the strength, keep showing up and help those around you.
[36:32] Have a good week everyone.
[36:34] Christina Donovan: Thanks for listening.
[36:36] Christina Donovan: Last season we ended each episode with a quote that was relevant to our discussion or interview.
[36:42] For this second season we decided to change it up a bit.
[36:45] We will be ending each episode with a recommendation of a book,
[36:50] song, artist,
[36:52] show, movie.
[36:54] Basically something that has touched Tara and I in some way and that we wish to share.
[37:01] Tara and I will alternate our recommendations and I should add that they may or may not be relevant to the topic at hand.
[37:09] My first recommendation is actually a song.
[37:13] I first heard this version from my oldest child, Maggie.
[37:18] It is a remake of the Fleetwood Mac song Landslide and it is performed by the band the Chicks, formerly known as the Dixie Chicks.
[37:29] I hope you will take a listen. It is a fresh and modern take on a classic song that describes the shifting landscapes of middle age pretty perfectly.
[37:41] For show notes and other information about our podcast,
[37:45] please Visit our website messymiddlesence.com if you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend.
[37:56] Christina Donovan: And don't forget to leave a positive
[37:58] Christina Donovan: rating or review for us.
[38:00] Christina Donovan: As always, we hope you will return for more.
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"Train Yourself to Always Show Up" Guest Essay from the New York Times, Jan. 19, 2024. If you do not have a subscription to the NY Times, please use our [Gift Link].
"The Amen Effect"; book by Sharon Brous. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/720048/the-amen-effect-by-sharon-brous/
Poem: "The Friend" by Alice Kavonas. Available on The Inspired Funeral website
Option B: Facing Adversity, Building Resilience, and Finding Joy by Sheryl Sandberg and Adam Grant
Interview with Sheryl Sandberg describing isolation and grief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa5DbZ2_bu0&t=189s
Poem: "Quietly" by Becky Hemsley
Interview with Rabbi Sharon Brous discussing her book the "Amen Effect": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_Wf-fPpz-M&t=1832s
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