64. Joy: Are We Trying Too Hard?
“It’s walking outside, it’s tending my plants, it’s just sitting on our porch at dusk...Those things are really what ground me, inspire gratitude, and just make me happy to be alive.”
We are all familiar with the word “joy”. It is hard not to be these days. The word seems to be everywhere, from advertisements and cleaning philosophies to countless books, articles, and podcasts.
When did joy become so prominent in our culture? We do not remember hearing much about it in our youth or early adulthood, apart from the occasional Christmas carol or religious hymn. Yet phrases such as “Does it spark joy?” are now part of our cultural vocabulary.
What exactly is joy? Is it different from happiness? Is it a fleeting feeling that comes from a particular experience, or something deeper and more enduring? And why are we talking about it so much these days?
Ironically, the pursuit—or even obsession—with joy can become self-defeating. In our busy lives, where we are often striving to accomplish more, is joy becoming just another thing we are working toward?
Despite being fashionable, we believe joy plays an important role in our mental well-being and can deepen our sense of life’s goodness and sacredness. In today’s episode, we explore joy in our personal lives and in the broader culture. We talk about the things that bring us joy and the obstacles that can get in the way.
We don't come away with any definitive answers, but we enjoyed exploring these questions together.
Topics discussed include:
How should we define joy, and how does it differ from happiness?
What gives us joy?
How do other people help us experience joy?
Why is joy so prominent in our culture today?
What gets in the way of experiencing joy?
How can we cultivate more joy in our lives without trying too hard?
How are play and joy connected?
We hope the conversation inspires you to reflect on the role of joy in your own life.
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[00:19] Christina Donovan: Hello,
[00:20] this is Christina Or Tina Conti Donovan, and I'm here with my sister Tara Conti Bansal.
[00:29] And we have another episode of Messy Middlescence for you. Today we're going to be talking about joy.
[00:38] And part of the reason we wanted to talk about this topic is it is a word that I feel like is almost overutilized in our culture.
[00:51] It's,
[00:52] to me, has become a trendy word that you hear used in all different ways and places.
[00:59] And it's funny, it's not something that I in particular remember ever hearing about in my youth or even in my early 20s.
[01:07] It seems,
[01:09] I don't know, that it's
[01:10] Tara Bansal: become
[01:12] Christina Donovan: trendy is the word that comes to mind. That might not be the right, the right word to use, but Tara and I talked about having joy as our theme for this season.
[01:24] And there were a lot of reasons why I think we chose not to do that.
[01:29] But we still felt like it was a topic worth discussing.
[01:33] So that's what we're going to spend a few minutes today.
[01:38] And I guess my first question to you, Tara, would be,
[01:43] you know, how do you define joy?
[01:46] Tara Bansal: Yeah,
[01:47] and I was thinking the same thing. Like, how is joy different than like happiness versus even?
[01:59] I don't know. I think of joy as a feeling.
[02:04] And I think I read a book and we'll have to re. I think her name's Ingrid something Lee or Ingrid Lee something that she talked about.
[02:19] Joy is something you experience in a moment and happiness is over more. A longer time period.
[02:31] I don't know if that is true.
[02:33] Christina Donovan: I mean, that's interesting because that's in, in the little bit just of reading I've done about joy,
[02:40] it seems like there's almost two camps. The, there's this idea that it, it's something that's unexpected in a spark. And you know, it's. It's these quick bursts of things. But, but then there's other people that actually see joy as very different in the sense that it's.
[02:59] I don't know, it's a more continual underlying feeling that's not related to, to short events or things like that. It seems like there's two different ways that people view it.
[03:12] I do feel like modern society now, like when we talk about does it spark joy? It is that more kind of intense,
[03:21] Tara Bansal: quick thing in the moment.
[03:23] Christina Donovan: Yeah. That is a reaction to stuff. But I don't know. I mean, it does seem like.
[03:31] And of course, joy itself comes. I think originally it was much more a spiritual and religious connotation.
[03:38] Like when you go back,
[03:40] you know,
[03:41] in history,
[03:42] the word joy had a very different meaning and it was tied to sort of your spirituality, spiritual community and. Yeah.
[03:50] And I think that people who see it as more of like an underlying state,
[03:58] something that's continual,
[04:00] it's. It's more tied, I think, to those roots where it.
[04:07] I don't know, it's you. You receive joy. It's something that's ever present in your life because of certain practices, whether it's connection with people or gratitude or relationships. And giving back kind of give you this.
[04:27] It's like a foundation of joy that sits under. And happiness is supposed to be like a more fleeting reaction.
[04:36] So I guess that's part of my struggle with this word. And I do think some of it is just.
[04:41] It means different things to different people and different circumstances too.
[04:48] I don't know. Does that make sense?
[04:50] Tara Bansal: It does make sense.
[04:51] Christina Donovan: I mean,
[04:54] Tara Bansal: when I. And I like the word joy better than happiness, I guess it's more almost just if you use it consistently one way or the other.
[05:08] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[05:08] Tara Bansal: You know, and I remember reading a long time ago, people have a different happiness set point of just like with their demeanor and how they view themselves and life.
[05:23] So to me that is a broader.
[05:26] And I think I just have always thought of happiness as more like this bigger, broader baseline, possibly in your life.
[05:38] And so I guess maybe it's because of that book I read or whatever. But I do think of joy as
[05:47] Christina Donovan: a reaction to something.
[05:48] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Or more like in a moment, something you feel.
[05:53] Christina Donovan: Yeah. And I do think it is used that way. I mean, even trying to think. The Japanese cleaning lady,
[06:02] Marie,
[06:03] you know, Kondo, her whole thing was does it spark joy that whether you kept it or not. And that's a very instant feeling. I don't know. Yeah,
[06:14] reaction or. Yeah, reaction to something.
[06:19] I mean, some people I think would say happiness is. It can be tied to more external things like status, life satisfaction,
[06:33] success in career or family.
[06:37] I don't know. So I do think. I guess the question does. Does it really matter, these differentiations between joy and happiness?
[06:45] Tara Bansal: I don't think so. I guess it's more just making sure we're speaking the same language.
[06:53] Does it really matter? Probably not. It's just what it means,
[06:59] especially for us and how we're going to use it.
[07:03] Because our closing question that we're going to try to do at the end of each episode is asking either our guest or Tina or I will.
[07:13] Will try to answer,
[07:15] like, what is bringing us joy at that moment? Right. Like. Or that Day.
[07:21] Something to me that's kind of interesting and fun to think about.
[07:26] Christina Donovan: I agree.
[07:27] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[07:28] Christina Donovan: I mean,
[07:29] I know in our last episode you gave an example of joy in your life. I mean, what are some things that do you think give you joy or bring you joy?
[07:42] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And seeing the leaves turn,
[07:48] being outside and feeling the sunshine on my face.
[07:52] And then part of me even questions like, is that big enough for joy?
[07:57] I don't know, maybe that's just pleasure.
[08:01] Like, I don't know.
[08:07] And is there something different or even like the word wonder?
[08:13] I. I would say like my friendships and different conversations give me joy.
[08:20] Like being with people that I love.
[08:25] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[08:26] Tara Bansal: Like the example I gave last time was just seeing and hearing my boys play ping pong and just like hearing their laughter and hearing.
[08:35] So even I feel like witnessing other people's joy.
[08:41] Yes. Can bring new joy.
[08:44] Christina Donovan: There's a big.
[08:45] There's an article by David Brooks. It's actually,
[08:49] it's many years old. It made a huge impression on me when it came out. It's I think from 2019 or 2020,
[08:57] pre Covid. But he talks, he tries to define the difference between happiness and joy. And he talks about how a big part of joy is seeing it in other people or seeing happiness in other people or seeing other people achieve things.
[09:15] And the quote he gives in the article, I wrote it down, is how joy is the present that life gives you as you give away your gifts.
[09:26] And he was talking about how he had been at a graduation and watching parents experience joy as,
[09:37] you know, their kids achieved this degree because it was a result of their sacrifice and hard work. And so, yeah, I actually really agree with that.
[09:50] I know that when I read his article that resonated quite a bit with me.
[09:57] Tara Bansal: I keep going back to when, when I think of joy, I'm questioning myself. Is it like more just like small moments of pleasure? But I don't know.
[10:11] Christina Donovan: Well, I mean, if it is a long, is that okay? Like, I mean, yeah, I think it. I mean,
[10:17] it's also one of those things where joy is sort of this underlying part of you makes up your. Your outlook and your attitude towards life. I mean, those small bursts would all contribute to it making it stronger and making it bigger.
[10:37] I don't know.
[10:40] Tara Bansal: I mean, I personally believe that God wants us to feel and experience joy.
[10:49] I mean, and as I say that, I also understand that there has to be contrast to notice though that enjoyment.
[11:07] But I don't know,
[11:10] I think a big thing for me is you almost have to be present to notice. And experience the joy.
[11:20] Like I read an article on and this is part of, you know, my makeup and you hear me talk about this all the time, but I am a maximizer and I'm always trying to like fit more in and be more efficient and do all this.
[11:37] And the article is just how that robs you of joy because you're not fully present and you're like working towards a goal or the future or achievement of something instead of just being and experiencing the moment and being.
[11:57] Christina Donovan: In thinking about this topic, I mean that is something that actually occurred to me or I started wondering about is,
[12:08] you know,
[12:09] this word joy and how you hear it in all these places is almost a reaction to like our digital super hectic, super hyped up world, you know, that it has kind of become this, this word that you hear all the time because it's almost a reaction to what so many of us,
[12:32] even if we're not a maximizer, as you say. I mean, it's just hard in our, in our lives today with the digital media. And I think a lot of people experiencing burnout.
[12:45] I mean again, that's another word that you hear whether it's in your job or just I think because of post Covid things that.
[12:54] So I do think a lot of times we talk about joy because of these other things and it becomes something to strive for or it becomes a.
[13:06] Tara Bansal: A calendar, right?
[13:08] Christina Donovan: Yes.
[13:09] Tara Bansal: And just with like the amount of information at us all the time and the speed of change,
[13:19] I think that's why it's so trendy is because it's reaction kind of trying to fight against that or trying to.
[13:28] Christina Donovan: Right. It's almost like a resistance against. Against what? What we're inundated with on a daily basis. Yeah. No, I agree.
[13:39] Tara Bansal: So what brings you joy right now? What comes to mind?
[13:43] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I mean a lot of the things that you said,
[13:47] I mean,
[13:48] I was also thinking about the word joy.
[13:53] It's used a lot in the holidays. And when I think about the holidays that to me it brings me so much joy. And it's because I'm with family. Like you're celebrating life with the people you love and the people you want to be with.
[14:11] And to me, I understand very much why that word is connected to the holidays.
[14:21] But to me, a lot of joy for me is it is definitely in nature.
[14:29] It's walking outside,
[14:31] it's tending my plants,
[14:33] it's just sitting on our porch at dusk.
[14:38] It's a morning sunrise. I don't know, like those things are really what for me Ground me,
[14:48] inspire gratitude,
[14:50] and just make me happy to be alive.
[14:53] Yeah.
[14:54] Tara Bansal: And that's the other, to me is when I think of, like, what I'm grateful for, a lot of times it's something that gives me joy.
[15:07] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I would totally agree with that.
[15:10] Tara Bansal: Yeah. So those, to me, also go together in just trying to.
[15:16] I don't know,
[15:17] I feel like it's just an association I have.
[15:22] Instead of trying to analyze it and define it, I'm just putting that out there that, you know, things like that,
[15:28] they go together for me.
[15:33] Do you feel like what brings you joy has changed as you've gotten older?
[15:44] Because you said. I mean, I think part of it is, like, we didn't think about it as much.
[15:49] Christina Donovan: No. And that's some of it. You know,
[15:54] I don't think the concept of joy really was something that I thought about.
[16:03] I don't know. I was well into my 40s, I would say,
[16:09] Tara Bansal: because my reaction to that is I feel like most young kids are so joyful. Like, joy seems to come easily to them. Like, they take such.
[16:24] Christina Donovan: My point is, though, it wasn't something I thought of. Like, if you asked a child, are you feeling joyful? I don't think that's a word that's in, you know, their daily vocabulary.
[16:34] And I do think that's what I keep saying. I feel like that's what has changed right now is it's a word that people refer to, they think about.
[16:45] So. Yeah. But from an early age, I don't know, every day I look for something that makes me happy or joyful. Something to look forward to,
[16:56] something to look forward to. Something that.
[17:00] Tara Bansal: And are those different things?
[17:03] Christina Donovan: Oh, yeah. I mean.
[17:04] And that's where, again, there's this range of.
[17:08] It could be. I'm gonna get a latte from the coffee shop downtown, you know, or I'm gonna go for a walk at Jacobsburg, or I'm gonna read my book for 20 minutes on the porch.
[17:23] I don't know. Like, it. They're very, very small, everyday things,
[17:29] and
[17:29] Tara Bansal: yet they give you joy. And I feel like actually.
[17:33] Christina Donovan: Or. Yeah.
[17:35] They either bring me a sense of peace or a sense of renewal. Even though it's a short, you know,
[17:42] something to look forward to and then something afterwards to say, oh, that was amazing.
[17:49] Yeah.
[17:51] I don't know. How about you?
[17:57] Tara Bansal: What was the question? Do I feel like I experience joy differently?
[18:01] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[18:03] Tara Bansal: I mean,
[18:05] going back to. I just feel like,
[18:09] as kids,
[18:11] and I think this is part of just the stress and pressure of our culture and life of, you Know when you're really young. And that's what I think of, like, in elementary school and younger,
[18:28] like,
[18:28] there's no expectations and you just get to, like, experience all these new things.
[18:36] So I feel like you get to witness joy in young kids so much easier.
[18:45] And.
[18:49] And I don't.
[18:53] I feel like in school and even after school I was so focused on doing well and that I don't feel like I noticed joy the way I do now.
[19:11] And I also think as you get older,
[19:14] certain things feel more precious and finite.
[19:19] So I think that's something that's changed with age, is like.
[19:23] Christina Donovan: Yeah, you have a different perspective.
[19:25] Tara Bansal: Yeah,
[19:26] for me.
[19:27] Yeah.
[19:29] But to your point, like, I don't think I thought about it,
[19:34] you know, as much as we do now. And I don't know if that is because it's trendy and getting so much attention or because we need it, you know, like that.
[19:50] Christina Donovan: Yeah, no, I understand. Yeah, I agree.
[19:54] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[19:55] Christina Donovan: I mean, is.
[19:57] Do you talk to your family or friends about this concept of joy or what brings people, you know, joy? Like, is that something that has ever made it into a conversation with.
[20:13] With your. Your immediate family, Nimit. And your boys or with close friends? Probably not.
[20:19] Tara Bansal: Not really that as much like, we always.
[20:23] We often do. What was your highlight of the day or low light of the day?
[20:29] And.
[20:30] But to me, that's.
[20:31] So I guess sometimes that can be something that gives you joy, but not.
[20:37] And I feel like because of how I am, it's always grading things on a scale of 1 to 10,
[20:44] or what's your favorite?
[20:46] You know,
[20:48] that's like, what were your highlights of the day?
[20:50] I do that a lot, but almost that's counter to.
[20:55] I feel like as we're talking about it, just experiencing joy.
[20:59] Christina Donovan: Right.
[20:59] Tara Bansal: Like, it's. Right, it's evaluating instead of just living.
[21:05] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. Enjoying. Yeah.
[21:07] Tara Bansal: How about for you and your family?
[21:10] Christina Donovan: No, I don't think it's really something that we as a family have ever talked about. Yeah.
[21:21] Tara Bansal: I mean, one of the things is sometimes even with the holidays, and I know we talked about this in a previous episode, where the expectation is,
[21:34] you know, this is supposed to be fun and then there's this pressure around it or.
[21:44] And I think Brene Brown talks about foreboding joy of just, like,
[21:49] almost.
[21:50] Well, I think that's different. But almost, like, afraid to feel joy because then it's going to.
[22:00] Christina Donovan: It's not going to last. Like, you have to deal with the. And then you have to deal with it. Yeah.
[22:06] Tara Bansal: So, yeah, I mean, I think that
[22:11] Christina Donovan: raises a point too. I mean, you talked about sort of how you feel as things that keep you from feeling joy. Just.
[22:24] Or used to. I mean, are there other,
[22:26] are there other obstacles to joy, do you think,
[22:32] in our life besides just the busyness of social media and.
[22:39] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, I think it goes to not listening to yourself or people pleasing or doing the shoulds instead of like, just almost like paying attention to your body or to what naturally draws you.
[23:00] And that's something I think you can get better about noticing joy when you like set that intention.
[23:12] It's almost like you have your antenna out for it. And then when I get up in the morning, I sit in the same chair and I love the soft blanket that I put over me noticing that.
[23:23] And,
[23:24] and I feel like I didn't until I made an effort to like notice the things that.
[23:31] Christina Donovan: Small things like that. Yeah.
[23:34] I mean, I do think in our culture too,
[23:40] I mean, you kind of alluded to this and I think as we get older, this gets easier. But I do think sometimes people feel guilty about taking the time to have a cup of coffee on the porch or go for a walk or like our, our culture is so,
[24:01] you know, you need to be productive. You need to. Yeah. You know,
[24:05] and I think that can be harmful and just kind of realizing pretty small day to day.
[24:15] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And when you started saying that my mind went to like feeling guilty for pleasures or feeling joy when there's so much suffering and other like, like easily.
[24:31] Christina Donovan: That's probably a more accurate point. Right. Like why, why do I get to feel joy in my life when there's so much miserable suffering out there? Yeah, I think that's,
[24:46] it's a good
[24:47] Tara Bansal: point, but I think not allowing yourself that doesn't help the situ that, you know, like counterproductive. Yeah.
[24:59] Christina Donovan: You're not gonna.
[25:00] Tara Bansal: Is counterproductive world.
[25:02] Christina Donovan: And yeah. And if, if these small acts of joy are what
[25:08] Tara Bansal: kind of give you
[25:09] Christina Donovan: strength to face some really hard things or I mean, they become almost more important, you know? Yeah.
[25:18] Tara Bansal: And to me that is, that goes to like, I believe we're meant to experience joy.
[25:25] And to your point, like, how much do we get in our own way to,
[25:33] you know, not experience it or stop ourselves from experiencing it because of wanting it to be perfect or wanting, you know, like more than what is there and letting that ruin different things?
[25:50] Yeah.
[25:52] Here's a.
[25:53] Do you think there's a thing of trying to pursue too much joy?
[26:05] Christina Donovan: I don't. Yeah. Do you?
[26:09] Tara Bansal: I guess it goes to. Goes to that maximizing of Trying too hard can, like, then gets in the way of, like, fully experiencing the joy.
[26:27] Christina Donovan: If you're like, yeah,
[26:30] quote, I. I'm gonna butcher it. But it's.
[26:33] And they. I think the word used in this quote was happiness is like a butterfly. Like, the more you chase it, the harder it is to catch. But if you sit quietly, it will come sit on your shoulder.
[26:44] Yeah. It's really cliche, but.
[26:47] Yeah. That idea that the harder you go to pursue it,
[26:53] you know, it kind of defeats the purpose.
[26:55] Tara Bansal: Yeah. So that's what came up for me is.
[26:58] Christina Donovan: Yeah,
[27:00] I mean, I suppose that's true. And I mean, again,
[27:03] like, it's.
[27:06] To me, a lot of what joy should come from is connections with other people.
[27:13] I mean, I think you could argue that if that is a big source of your joy, I don't think you can have too much of that.
[27:20] Yeah.
[27:21] Tara Bansal: But I think it's almost the attitude or. Or the perspective.
[27:26] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. Like how you approach it. Mm. I mean, what.
[27:32] Tara Bansal: What do you think you would do differently if you were prioritizing joy for you?
[27:42] Christina Donovan: Um.
[27:44] Tara Bansal: Or do you think you would do anything differently?
[27:47] Christina Donovan: No. I mean, I do think I mentioned this in the beginning. I do think that there are certain components that can really increase joy.
[28:00] I think practicing gratitude is a big, big one.
[28:05] I think concentrating on social connection and relationships is another one.
[28:11] I think giving back in some way again is.
[28:17] And then, I mean,
[28:19] this is going to sound awful, but to just really try not to complain. I mean.
[28:28] Yeah.
[28:31] And I think we didn't mention that. Yeah. But that is, for me personally, those are components that. I think I do all of those in a certain extent, but for me, it would involve, I think, ramping up.
[28:47] I mean, I don't keep a gratitude journal or anything like that, but I can see where that has it. For me, it would have probably a terrific impact, and it's probably something I should take the energy and time to do.
[29:03] Same with giving back. I mean,
[29:06] yes, I do volunteering, but my volunteering is.
[29:10] I don't know. I think, again, it could be a lot more directed and intentional. I don't know.
[29:15] Tara Bansal: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I've tried doing the gratitude journal,
[29:20] and.
[29:21] And it, like, robbed the joy. All the joy.
[29:25] It just felt like another task and it felt hard sometimes and, like, I didn't enjoy it. So it's just funny for me, I think it's more of the noticing.
[29:40] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[29:41] Tara Bansal: And I love your making an effort not to complain.
[29:45] There is a coaching exercise of just for, like, one day,
[29:48] just tried not to Complain and noticing, like, almost like biting your tongue, you know, it's hard to catch yourself but realizing how often you do it. And I think.
[30:04] I think most of us know of certain people who. It seems like they complain so much and.
[30:10] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[30:10] Tara Bansal: And what effect that has.
[30:13] Christina Donovan: I think it's any. All of us. So much of our conversations with others are complaining about it.
[30:20] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Neighbors.
[30:23] Christina Donovan: The people we, you know, interact with. And. Yeah. It's life. I don't know. So, yeah, I think that's. It's hard not to do.
[30:34] Tara Bansal: It is hard not to do,
[30:36] and.
[30:38] But I feel like I've heard it can make a difference when you really do try to stop yourself from doing it,
[30:49] because it's one of those. Your energy goes where your focus is, and so it just brings you down.
[30:56] Christina Donovan: I know what you're saying, though, about when things become a task. I mean,
[31:01] I've talked about this multiple times on.
[31:05] In previous episodes, but, you know, part of the reason I didn't want to do a triathlon or a race was because I didn't want to have to.
[31:16] To become a task. Same with.
[31:19] When I talked about my experiment with my garden.
[31:23] I didn't want taking care of the garden to become a task. Like, it was something that I enjoy. And I don't know, there is kind of that fine line between something becoming something that you enjoy becoming something that you.
[31:42] Something you no longer enjoy. Because, you know, it. It.
[31:46] Tara Bansal: You have to.
[31:47] Christina Donovan: It becomes something you have to do. Yeah. Yeah.
[31:50] Tara Bansal: No, and I think that's interesting to think about.
[31:55] Christina Donovan: I mean, I know you mentioned a book at the beginning or have you read any other books that focus or talk specifically about joy?
[32:05] Tara Bansal: I read Arthur Brooks new book,
[32:08] and there's a big sub theme around joy, but it's also around purpose.
[32:14] And so that one comes to mind. But it's.
[32:21] I don't know, it's all the stuff we're talking about, like, it's all related and all intertwined.
[32:26] Christina Donovan: I think it is. That's what I think.
[32:28] Tara Bansal: The.
[32:28] Christina Donovan: We're really. This episode is really showing happiness, joy, purpose, social connection.
[32:41] Tara Bansal: And thinking about what gets in the way of joy, which I feel like we've talked a good amount. Like guilt,
[32:50] efficiency, you know, obligation,
[32:54] responsibility,
[32:57] perfectionism.
[32:58] You know, there's a lot that can get in the way.
[33:01] Christina Donovan: Digital noise. Yeah.
[33:03] Tara Bansal: Mm.
[33:07] And I also feel like we keep saying this, but for me, there's a relationship between joy and being present almost. You can't experience joy unless you are present to it or present in it.
[33:24] Christina Donovan: Yes, I would totally agree yeah.
[33:27] Tara Bansal: And so that's something that I think can, you know, get in the way of joy is just not being present. So.
[33:36] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[33:38] Tara Bansal: Any other questions that you had?
[33:42] Christina Donovan: No, I think we covered most of mine. Do you any more on yourself?
[33:48] Tara Bansal: I think the one this is,
[33:50] I think the book I read was around play,
[33:55] and I'm gonna have to go back and look. So that to me is something like the relationship of play to joy.
[34:05] Christina Donovan: And,
[34:07] Tara Bansal: and I guess, like when I think of play,
[34:11] you hope it brings joy,
[34:13] but that play feels the opposite of work in that it's not a have to,
[34:22] it's more free and just the way you can do it.
[34:29] I don't know.
[34:31] And even play, I guess you could define it multiple different ways.
[34:35] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[34:35] Tara Bansal: What's your reaction to that?
[34:38] Christina Donovan: I don't know. I think play is a difficult term and I think it's difficult for adults. I mean, just,
[34:47] Tara Bansal: we don't play anymore.
[34:50] Christina Donovan: No, I think we do play, but I just. And maybe older people who are retired may have a different. But I mean, I don't know the way our lives are. Even play, to a certain extent, needs to be scheduled.
[35:03] You know what I mean? Like, we don't have time where you're just doing nothing and you think, oh, I'm going to go play. You know what I mean? It's,
[35:17] it's, it's scheduled into,
[35:19] I don't know,
[35:21] a walk with friends or a softball game or so.
[35:27] Yeah, I think play, I guess that whole idea is just for me, hard to get my mind around at this point in our lives.
[35:39] Tara Bansal: But I also think with kids there's not as much just free play.
[35:46] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I don't think kids have as much free time. When I think of, like, what we
[35:51] Tara Bansal: did growing up and especially in the summer,
[35:55] there'd be just a neighborhood kick the can game and people,
[35:59] you know, it wasn't planned. It wasn't. It was just who was spontaneous. Yeah.
[36:06] And now I feel like there's so much structured sports and structured other things, Activities.
[36:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah. And that doesn't mean that they can't be fun and bring joy and happiness. It's just, it's kind of just a different mindset, I guess.
[36:25] Tara Bansal: And I think that's part of when I think of the play and playfulness.
[36:32] I associate it with some more with joy. Just because it's not an obligation and not a.
[36:41] Yeah.
[36:42] There's no expectations around it.
[36:46] Anything else?
[36:48] Christina Donovan: I think we probably beat this topic to death.
[36:53] Tara Bansal: I think this was fun. I, I,
[36:55] I don't know,
[36:56] Tina. I feel like the more you talk, the better I.
[37:00] Oh, brother.
[37:02] But no, I. I thought this was really good.
[37:06] Christina Donovan: Well, yeah, I hope it makes people think about joy in their own lives. Either the.
[37:13] The abundance of it or maybe the lack of it. And you know,
[37:17] how to change some of those things,
[37:20] get more of it
[37:21] Tara Bansal: and start noticing it. To me, that's the word.
[37:24] Christina Donovan: Start noticing.
[37:24] Tara Bansal: Almost. I feel like it's there. It's just for us to notice.
[37:30] Christina Donovan: Oh, I totally agree with that. But again, it's breaking down some of these obstacles that we talked about, you know, that. That keep us from.
[37:40] From being present and seeing what. What is there.
[37:46] Tara Bansal: All right. I loved it. Thank you.
[37:51] Christina Donovan: As we move into cooler weather, something that is bringing me joy right now is the simple pleasure of having a fire in our living room fireplace.
[38:03] My parents, all throughout my childhood, and as the youngest adult,
[38:07] would gather all of us in the late afternoon and evenings of fall and winter around a wood fire crackling in our fireplace.
[38:18] And I am very lucky to have married someone who is attached to this practice as well.
[38:25] We recently had our first fire of the season,
[38:28] and while it was just my husband and I,
[38:33] it is impossible for me to sit in front of the coziness and warmth of a wood fire without thinking of my children,
[38:42] my parents,
[38:43] my siblings.
[38:45] Sitting in front of a wood fire brings me happy memories of celebration,
[38:51] connection,
[38:53] and quiet reflection.
[38:55] It is a touchstone for me of happiness and peace and, yes, joy. Happy fall.
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Books and Resources Mentioned
Joyful: The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness — Ingrid Fetell Lee
Ingrid Fetell Lee’s Aesthetics of Joy website: https://aestheticsofjoy.com/
Joy & Happiness — David Brooks
Brené Brown explores why we sometimes find it difficult to fully experience joy, particularly when we're afraid it won't last, and how gratitude can help us stay present
The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness — Arthur C. Brooks
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What's Bringing Tina Joy
As we move into cooler weather, something bringing Tina joy is the simple pleasure of a wood fire crackling in the fireplace.
Throughout her childhood, her family gathered around the fire on fall and winter evenings, and she is fortunate to have married someone who shares her love of this tradition. They recently enjoyed their first fire of the season, and although it was just Tina and her husband, sitting in front of the fire brought back memories of her parents, siblings, and children.
For Tina, a wood fire is a touchstone for happy memories of celebration, connection, and quiet reflection. It brings a sense of happiness, peace, and yes, joy. Happy fall!