63. Season 4 Premiere: What Does It Mean to Transform?
““It’s [Transformation is] an intimidating theme…but that’s not a reason not to do it.””
It is hard to believe, but today we launch Season 4 of Messy Middlescence with our 63rd episode! As we have done for the past few seasons, we begin by looking back at our respective summers. We describe the highlights and moments that will stay with us as we move into cooler weather and the more structured/scheduled days of fall.
We also introduce our new theme of “Transformation” for the upcoming season. We discuss how we landed on this theme, along with some of our reservations and concerns about taking on such a big topic. Much of our conversation revolves around what transformation actually means and the different ways we might explore it in future episodes.
Some of the questions we consider include:
What is the difference between transition and transformation?
Can a transition become a transformation?
What are the many ways transformation can occur?
Can transformation be negative — and what might that entail?
Does our “essential self” change when we transform, or can transformation actually bring us closer to who we truly are?
Can we experience an internal transformation that isn't visible to others?
Can we transform without “blowing up” our lives?
How does self-improvement differ from transformation?
Does midlife make transformation easier or more difficult?
We also share examples of transformation - or what we think might qualify as transformation - from our own lives and the lives of people we know.
Transformation is a big topic to take on as a theme, and we admit we are more than a little intimidated by it. BUT we are also excited and curious to see where it takes us. We hope you will join us on our journey this season as we explore transformation in all its forms.
And for this season, at the end of each episode, one of us, or our guest, will share something that is bringing us joy right now. We hope it will encourage all of us to notice a little more of the joy present in our everyday lives.
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[00:21] Tara Bansal: Hello and welcome. This is Tara Conti Bansal, and I'm here with my sister, Christina Conti Donovan.
[00:29] And I am so excited to kick off season four of Messy Middlescence
[00:36] I love the fall.
[00:37] I just always.
[00:39] I always view it as the start of a new year. I still have kids in school,
[00:46] and so this is when you get to start a new routine.
[00:51] And I love that we, Tina and I, took a break over the summer and kicking off our new season here in the fall.
[01:00] Tina, real quick, because you don't have kids at home, I guess you still have Matt Jack at college, but does the fall feel like a new year for you?
[01:15] Tina Donovan: Hey, I have noticed both last year and this year,
[01:21] I am much more in tune with a seasonal change.
[01:26] It still has felt like summer for me,
[01:29] I would say through most of September.
[01:31] And I think some of it is because my routine has not changed that much from the summer months.
[01:39] It is starting to feel like fall now that it's darker when we get up in the morning and we had our first batch of really cool weather.
[01:50] And even in our yard, some of our dogwoods are starting to show indications of color. And that, to me, has been more the harboring of fall than,
[02:03] yeah. Anything else.
[02:05] So, yeah, that's been a big change, I would say. And I noticed that last year and summer didn't really end for me yet. And I think it'll be the actual change of the season that will usher that in.
[02:17] Tara Bansal: I do love fall. And I just feel like this week just we're recording this in the middle of September, but this past week here in the Northeast, the evenings have, you know, it went down to 49 degrees, and so you didn't need something.
[02:34] Tina Donovan: And it's getting dark early. Yeah. By 7pm Here, where we're off the porch and inside.
[02:40] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I agree. What were some of your highlights from the summer?
[02:47] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I mean, my. I had a very quiet summer,
[02:50] which is partly why summer hasn't really changed for me too much as we moved into early September.
[02:59] I mean, I didn't do much travel,
[03:02] but I was very lucky in the sense that despite not traveling, I got to spend and see a lot of family thanks to Tara having the house in Manasquan, we had a lot of family come up and visit through that,
[03:20] so I got to take advantage of that. And that was really wonderful. I mean, I said to my children, I saw six of our seven siblings this summer, which is actually amazing.
[03:32] But aside from that, I mean, my biggest,
[03:35] I guess, thing this summer was I actually took a garden Plot at the LA farm is what it's called, but it's. It's a part of Lafayette College. They have a big farm just about two or three miles from.
[03:50] From my house, and they do allow alumni and people to get plots there. Um, so I.
[03:56] Tara Bansal: Do you have to pay for the plot.
[03:58] Tina Donovan: You put down a deposit, and the deposit is that you maintain it. Um, I think if you just stop showing up or let it go, then they keep your deposit so they can clean and cover it.
[04:09] But as I think if I left it in good condition, I'd get the deposit back. Yeah. And that's just been wonderful for me.
[04:18] I was apprehensive about,
[04:20] just because it's not within walking distance,
[04:23] whether it would feel like a burden to go,
[04:26] but it hasn't.
[04:28] I can spend hours there.
[04:31] It's quiet. I mean, there are student workers there and obviously other community gardeners, but I don't know. It's a big enough space.
[04:39] I'm usually there by myself and. Or I don't see people around me. And.
[04:44] Tara Bansal: I don't know.
[04:45] Tina Donovan: I just love it. It's time outside.
[04:47] I've been growing flowers and some veggies and.
[04:51] Yeah, that's been a really successful,
[04:55] what I call experiment for me, something I want to keep doing. So that was a big part of my summer.
[05:01] Tara Bansal: How big is the plot?
[05:04] Tina Donovan: My plot is 10 by 20.
[05:06] Okay. And that's pretty big.
[05:09] Yeah. And I'm hoping actually this fall it's half of what you normally get, and you can do a half plot or a whole plot. And I think next year I'm gonna do a whole plot.
[05:21] So.
[05:22] Yeah, so that's.
[05:23] It'll be twice the size of that.
[05:26] Tara Bansal: And how. How long does it take you to get there?
[05:30] Tina Donovan: I mean, that's the thing. Initially,
[05:32] I had hoped to ride my bike there.
[05:36] Um, I didn't do that once,
[05:41] but it's not that far. It takes about six or seven minutes from door to door. Yeah. And the other thing is, it's on a road.
[05:49] It's off a road that I travel regularly. My grocery store. I pass my grocery store on the way. And a lot of the daily or weekly errands I do are on that road.
[06:01] So it's very easy to say, oh, I'm gonna go to the garden. And then on my way home, I'll. I'll stop and do this, or I have to do this.
[06:08] So I'll swing by the garden. So, yeah, that's been good and easy. Um, so, yeah.
[06:14] Tara Bansal: And how many vegetables, like, did you eat?
[06:18] Tina Donovan: Oh, I kept it, Yeah, I kept it really simple this year. Um, and that's the thing. I,
[06:24] I, I'm more interested in growing flowers than veggies, but it seems silly to have a garden and not have any edibles. So. Yeah, I mean, I did the basics. I did tomatoes, zucchini, peppers, cucumbers.
[06:38] I tried some things with cabbage and greens. Although there is, there are rabbits and groundhogs. So my stuff got eaten and that's something I have to work on.
[06:48] But my flowers have been tremendous.
[06:51] I grow a lot of dahlias and I usually would grow them here at the house.
[06:56] So much space and room and sun that they've been phenomenal. And yeah, it was just fun to experiment, to put seeds down and see what came up.
[07:06] I,
[07:07] right now, twice a week come home with a bucket full of just flowers. And that is,
[07:13] for me, brings me so much happiness and joy. So that's been good.
[07:17] Tara Bansal: What do you do with the flowers?
[07:20] Tina Donovan: I mean, I use them in my house, but I also, people I don't know, I give them as like.
[07:27] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, you brought flowers every time to the beach. We're beautiful to people.
[07:31] Tina Donovan: They just lost their moms. Like, I left them a cart with a small, you know, vase of flowers and we had a get together a couple weeks ago and somebody brought something and I returned their dish with a thing of flowers.
[07:44] You know, it's, it's nice to be able to do that.
[07:48] Yeah.
[07:48] So,
[07:49] so yeah, so I,
[07:50] I'm not, I am trying to use all of them, although there are times where it is funny, you become less, you become pretty picky about what you do.
[07:59] You're willing to like get rid of substandard blooms. But yeah, so that's been fun.
[08:05] Tara Bansal: And it sounds like it was. I mean, we're going to talk about this more this season, but like a successful experiment because you weren't sure, right?
[08:14] Tina Donovan: I didn't know what to expect. I didn't have a lot of expectations and I was nervous about.
[08:20] But yeah, for me it's been, it was a really good experiment and something I want to keep doing.
[08:25] Tara Bansal: What were you nervous about?
[08:29] Tina Donovan: That I would just not care for my plants. Well, that I would be lazy and
[08:37] Tara Bansal: not enjoy it or not do anything or.
[08:40] Tina Donovan: Yeah, that it would feel a burden, you know, oh, I have to go. Like taking something that I normally enjoy, which is gardening and making it into something that became a task or something that I had to do versus wanting to do.
[08:57] And it wasn't like that at all.
[08:59] Okay.
[09:01] Yeah.
[09:02] I mean, I would Be like, oh, I'm gonna go to the garden for an hour. And like, four hours later I'd come back, you know, just.
[09:09] Yeah, I could spend hours there. And it was.
[09:11] It was sort of a.
[09:13] Like, time disappears when I'm there, which is always a. A sense that.
[09:18] Tara Bansal: Which is a sign that. Yeah, that's what they say. What are the things you lose time with or, you know, that's so good.
[09:26] Tina Donovan: So I guess. I mean, Matt and I were able to socialize a little bit.
[09:31] Tara Bansal: We held.
[09:31] Tina Donovan: Had a couple parties and get togethers this summer, which is something we want to do more of, so that was good too, but that's about it.
[09:39] Tara Bansal: And I. Well, did you. I feel like in the past there were a bunch of porch parties. Did that happen this year or not as much.
[09:47] Tina Donovan: They haven't. I mean, we had one at the summer, at the beginning of the summer. And yeah, that's something that has changed, and I'm not sure why there's. There's talk of it.
[09:59] There were a lot of get togethers,
[10:02] but a lot of they didn't happen on porches. Like, there would be impromptu happy hours at local establishments. But, yeah, I don't know. It's something.
[10:13] I have a ladies night that is once a month, and that's something that I think next year, like, I'll probably maybe talk to the women there and see next summer if we can kind of get.
[10:26] Get. Get things more scheduled.
[10:29] So. So, yeah,
[10:31] very nice.
[10:32] But, yeah, how about your summer? Your summer was a lot more exciting than mine.
[10:37] Tara Bansal: I don't feel like it was. I feel like it was really busy.
[10:43] Tara Bansal: And
[10:45] Tara Bansal: I don't know. This summer felt more tiring to me than the past.
[10:53] We did travel to Atlanta and to Pittsburgh to see family,
[11:02] but most of the summer was here and going to Manasquan and. And I feel like this was the first year of having it for the summer.
[11:15] And I feel like there were a. A lot of.
[11:19] We're learning, I guess, is, you know, bottom line.
[11:22] Um,
[11:23] I loved getting to see our family,
[11:28] and as Tina said, we got to see,
[11:31] you know, six of our seven siblings, and our parents came,
[11:36] you know, and Tina came.
[11:38] And I liked being able to see because a lot of times, usually once a year, we try to get as many together as possible,
[11:47] which is always very fun,
[11:49] but it's also a lot of people at one time,
[11:53] and this
[11:56] Tara Bansal: was
[11:58] Tara Bansal: nice to have almost like one family at a time that we got to spend time with,
[12:06] and I just loved that.
[12:09] So, you know, like, I. I still want us to do the big get togethers.
[12:16] But I did enjoy getting the smaller groups together and being able to, I guess, feel like I got more quality time one on one or two people at a time.
[12:29] So that was really nice in some ways.
[12:34] I mean, I think what was exhausting for me was going back and forth and learning.
[12:42] Like,
[12:44] it's not far, it's one hour,
[12:46] but, like, packing up food and what you need was, I guess, a little harder than I had expected.
[12:56] And like I said, I do think Nimit and I. I said to him, I was like, I think we need to debrief on the summer of what we liked, what we didn't like, and what we want to do better.
[13:08] And he's like, that sounds so corporate. And I was like, well, I just.
[13:13] I don't know what other word to use.
[13:15] Um.
[13:16] And Nathan worked at the beach at this restaurant, and I feel like that was a wonderful,
[13:23] positive experience for him.
[13:26] He loved the environment and that caused a little bit of, like, he got scheduled and we would just have to go to the beach for him to go to work.
[13:35] Not too often,
[13:37] but I do think we can do a better job of just, like, planning out the summer ahead of time,
[13:44] and I think that will help.
[13:47] The highlight of the summer for me was going to the Bruno Mars concert.
[13:53] And I.
[13:55] I would say I was not a Bruno Mars fan until we started, or the household started training for it, which meant we were listening to him a lot and the boys were already huge Bruno Mars fan.
[14:12] That's why we went.
[14:14] I don't know. It. It just was a really great concert and it was a beautiful night.
[14:20] And I don't know,
[14:23] most of the concerts we go to and have gone to are 80s, like,
[14:29] older people that are there, and the performers are over the age of generally 65 or 70,
[14:38] because those are the bands that I listen to. And we've gone to the effects,
[14:44] like the fireworks. And I don't know, it was a whole nother level from other concerts I've been to. And I didn't go to the Taylor Swift, but it was,
[14:57] to me, I imagine, more like that. Like, he did all these costume changes and his band,
[15:04] like, dances while they play and.
[15:08] Tina Donovan: Yeah, that's crazy.
[15:08] Tara Bansal: It was, yeah, really crazy and phenomenal.
[15:13] And,
[15:14] yeah, that was like, almost like an unexpected highlight this summer.
[15:21] And so I think I will always think of this as the Bruno Mars summer.
[15:26] Tina Donovan: Yeah, that's fun.
[15:28] One of the things, I mean, you hosted so many people over the summer at your beach house.
[15:35] I don't know what do you feel like? Do you feel like you're a better host now after doing that, or are there things that having done it, you would do differently?
[15:47] Tara Bansal: I do feel like I got better.
[15:50] And once again, planning ahead of, like, what meals were good for the size group. I mean, generally we were,
[16:00] I think, like around 10 or 12,
[16:05] and I wanted it to be pretty easy and quick.
[16:11] And so I'm not sure I have meals for more than three or four days that are like that. But I do feel like, luckily, most
[16:21] Tina Donovan: of your guests aren't there, so.
[16:25] Tara Bansal: And I feel like everybody helped. To me, that was a big deal of everybody would pitch in and there was no lack of that where I felt like it was all on me.
[16:40] The kitchen area is a little small,
[16:43] so I feel like at times that could be challenging, just like finding space for everybody to be able to help.
[16:53] But.
[16:54] And like the little, like your flowers, that's not something I would do, but I feel like, make.
[17:00] Make it feel and look so much better.
[17:06] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[17:06] Tara Bansal: I don't know. I'd be interested if you have, like, what you felt like I could have done better and.
[17:13] Tina Donovan: Or what you said, I don't know,
[17:14] went well.
[17:16] It wasn't just that that was the thing. It was this.
[17:20] Tara and Nimit had this kind of continual revolving door of guests almost continually from like.
[17:30] Tara Bansal: Yeah, like for most of July, mid
[17:32] Tina Donovan: July until mid August.
[17:34] And I don't know, I was so impressed, envious. I don't know what the word is that you seem to handle it all with such ease and everything was delicious and I don't know, everything just.
[17:48] See, you made it look very easy, but I could tell that it wasn't. I mean, I just never.
[17:52] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[17:53] Tara Bansal: And I. I think for me,
[17:55] like, the food,
[17:58] it was easier than I thought, I guess.
[18:01] And yet it was exhausting. But I think the exhausting was more almost like having,
[18:12] like being an introvert,
[18:13] having people all the time. All the time,
[18:17] I think was more exhausting. And then.
[18:22] And the other is just me worrying too much about little stuff.
[18:27] Tina Donovan: Um.
[18:28] Tara Bansal: And so, yeah, I think that what to let go of and not worry about versus my tendency is wanting it to, you know.
[18:39] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[18:40] Tara Bansal: So little things like that and accepting help. Cause I always wanted to food shop here where I know the store,
[18:48] because I don't know the stores there. So I would avoid doing that. My dad is happy to go food shopping and Nimit was happy to do food shopping down there.
[18:57] So almost getting better around.
[19:01] Not feeling so stressed about that.
[19:03] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[19:04] Tara Bansal: Of feeling like I have to get everything and plan everything all the way. So that is the.
[19:10] Tina Donovan: Is there anything you didn't do this summer that you wished you had?
[19:17] Tara Bansal: No, I think just more downtime.
[19:19] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[19:20] Tara Bansal: And. Yeah,
[19:22] and I did.
[19:25] Nimit and the boys went down to Atlanta for Labor Day weekend, and I stayed here,
[19:30] and I really did pretty much nothing.
[19:35] And I feel like I needed that.
[19:37] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. It was a good way to kind of finish the summer.
[19:41] Tara Bansal: Recharge.
[19:42] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Prepare for the.
[19:44] Tara Bansal: The fall.
[19:45] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[19:46] Tara Bansal: Yeah. So,
[19:47] I mean, I do think we missed doing, like, a bigger trip,
[19:54] and so I do think next year we're gonna probably do something.
[19:59] You know, it may not be a week, but, like, a long weekend going somewhere different.
[20:04] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[20:04] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[20:06] Tara Bansal: So. And, I mean, I think you and I are hoping we can plan something where everybody gets together for our extended family.
[20:15] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah.
[20:16] Tara Bansal: As many as possible.
[20:17] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[20:18] Tara Bansal: So.
[20:18] Tara Bansal: And that's our house cannot hold everyone,
[20:22] Tina Donovan: and so not many houses can.
[20:24] Tara Bansal: That's part of the problem. That is a big part of the problem is finding a place that feels nice, that can hold 25, 30 people.
[20:35] Tina Donovan: Yeah. And.
[20:37] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And just even meals for that is a whole other level, too.
[20:41] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how would you say this summer was much different than previous summers or beyond just being at Manasquan so much, or. No, it felt different.
[20:58] Tara Bansal: And I think.
[20:58] Tina Donovan: I mean, your kids didn't do as many camps.
[21:00] Tara Bansal: The kids didn't do as many camps,
[21:04] but yet,
[21:09] I don't know, it just felt busier.
[21:11] And I think with Nathan's job and even Alex,
[21:15] you know, was a camp counselor, and they didn't do as many camps, but I feel like we made up for that with, like, trips to the beach,
[21:24] so.
[21:25] Tina Donovan: And other things. Yeah, other things.
[21:27] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[21:27] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[21:29] Tara Bansal: But. And I think part of that's the boys are getting older, so it just does feel different then.
[21:36] It's all about us,
[21:37] you know, like, the four of us, it's.
[21:40] They're, you know, they have things they want to do and.
[21:43] Tina Donovan: Right.
[21:44] Tara Bansal: And.
[21:44] Tara Bansal: Yeah. People they want to see. And. Yeah,
[21:47] like,
[21:48] Nathan was away for Memorial Day with his friends, and that was very different.
[21:54] You know, just not to have him there for three days, four days.
[21:59] It's always bittersweet, I feel like, because I do love fall, and I do like getting back into a routine,
[22:07] but,
[22:08] I don't know, you look forward to summer and just, like, a little bit of that freedom and flexibility and doing different things and weather. I feel like the summer. The weather was better this summer.
[22:20] I don't know.
[22:22] It didn't. I know we had some hot spells, but I feel like not quite as many.
[22:26] Tina Donovan: It's funny because I re. Listened to our last season first, so season. The first episode of season three. And we talk about how the weather was so good last summer. I said how we only ran the air conditioning twice in August,
[22:44] which I don't remember it being that way, but,
[22:48] yeah, I feel like this summer was pretty. I mean, I don't think it was as good as last summer based on what we said.
[22:57] Yeah, we had a couple hot spells and some humidity, but all in all. And we had some rain this summer, which was nice. Yeah,
[23:05] I think particularly in August,
[23:07] it helped sometimes by August, everything.
[23:11] Yeah,
[23:11] but that definitely made a difference.
[23:14] But, yeah, I do.
[23:17] The other thing is maybe we're just getting used to it. The water.
[23:22] Tara Bansal: I mean, this year, the really hot was in the beginning.
[23:26] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[23:26] Tara Bansal: Like, I think June was way hotter than July.
[23:30] Tina Donovan: We had July 4th. We had the heat wave.
[23:32] Tara Bansal: Yeah. That was brutal.
[23:36] So Tina and I bounce around ideas for what theme we want in the new season,
[23:45] and we had a few different ideas.
[23:51] Do you think we should share them or not, Tina?
[23:57] Tina Donovan: Sure, we could share them. I mean, the only thing is we. Once we share them, people might know that we're going back on an old idea if we use it in the future.
[24:07] Tara Bansal: But I think that's okay from a listener and a good friend.
[24:13] They recommended we do something around philanthropy or giving back,
[24:20] and I do think that is a possible theme that we will do in the future.
[24:27] So, I mean, I guess that's why I'm okay presenting different ideas that we talked about, because if people think that's a good idea, they can give us feedback on,
[24:37] you know, this is one I would be interested in.
[24:43] And what was the first one you had?
[24:48] Tina Donovan: Um, it was around, like, joy in daily life.
[24:52] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[24:53] Tina Donovan: And again, that may be something we revisit, it seems, at least right now in media,
[25:00] social media. And I know that seems to be almost a cliche or kind of over.
[25:07] Tara Bansal: Over Focused, saturated.
[25:09] Tina Donovan: Yeah. In terms of. I think there is a lot out there on that.
[25:14] So, yeah, we.
[25:15] Of. That was one we went back and forth on and sort of some of the offshoots of that. We talked about genuine joy and,
[25:23] I don't know some other things that were sort of related to that.
[25:28] Tara Bansal: We talked about transitions and just. And that's a lot of what middlescence is about to me and our podcast.
[25:37] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah.
[25:38] Tara Bansal: So just diving more into that.
[25:42] Tina Donovan: What were.
[25:43] Tara Bansal: Was there any others?
[25:44] Tina Donovan: I mean, we talked about hobbies. Oh, yeah. Was Another possible topic or theme.
[25:53] Tara Bansal: That idea.
[25:55] Tina Donovan: Yeah. We could spend time talking about and discussing, and maybe we still will.
[26:01] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I feel like any of these we may come back to.
[26:07] Tina Donovan: Well, I was going to say, I mean,
[26:09] we sort of have this brainstorming session where we bounce ideas back and forth, and then we kind of take a break and we say we're going to think about it individually and come back.
[26:24] And what was really interesting this time was that we separated, we spent a couple of days thinking about it, and when we came back to discuss it more,
[26:34] Terry and I had a very. Tara and I had a very similar reaction. Sort of evolution. Yeah. Like, we kind of took some. Took something that we were thinking of and we took it down a path, and our path was exactly the same.
[26:51] And I thought that that was really interesting that we ended up at the same place with a lot of the same reservations, but a lot of the same thoughts about, oh, we should then move forward with this.
[27:05] So, yeah, I thought that was.
[27:08] It was almost like it was meant to be.
[27:10] Yeah.
[27:11] Tara Bansal: Fascinating and interesting that that happened. Like.
[27:15] Tina Donovan: Yeah, I don't think that's ever happened to us before.
[27:19] Tara Bansal: It's fun. And so the topic. And Tina and I said this, like, we can start with this theme and we may end up changing it if
[27:28] Tina Donovan: we don't have the right to adapt or change it as the. And progressive.
[27:34] Tara Bansal: But what we're going to start with and what we chose was transformation.
[27:40] What Tina and I both hesitated, or at least, you know, I hesitated, and when we talked about it earlier was transformation feels kind of like the word purpose, almost like heavy and big.
[27:59] Like almost overwhelming.
[28:01] Yeah, intimidating. That's the best word of it. It seems very intimidating.
[28:07] But we felt like it was a.
[28:10] A desirable topic and broad enough that we can use it and apply it in multiple ways and in talking to different people.
[28:23] And so we will see where it goes and how it goes.
[28:27] I mean, Tina, how.
[28:29] What does transformation mean to you?
[28:33] Tina Donovan: I mean, I guess for me, a transition,
[28:37] which is sort of what we keep talking about in middlescence,
[28:41] it's things that you can't control.
[28:45] You know, like empty nest is a transition that's gonna happen. And if you have children and, I mean, I think to a certain extent you can control things about it, but it's something that's going to happen.
[29:01] Like, seasonal changes are transitions that, you know, you're sort of along for the ride.
[29:07] And whereas transformation, to me, it's.
[29:11] It's. It's proactive. It's Intentional.
[29:15] And it's. It is almost.
[29:18] It's more.
[29:20] I don't know what the word is.
[29:23] Kind of letting go of something old to become something new. Like, it is. It's much more.
[29:31] It's bigger and.
[29:34] But I do think that the keywords there are intentional and proactive versus reacting to situations or things that are happening to you.
[29:48] Tara Bansal: Do you think you can have a transformation without it being intentional?
[29:55] Tina Donovan: No, I don't.
[29:56] Tara Bansal: No.
[29:56] Tina Donovan: Do you?
[29:58] Tara Bansal: I guess I kind of thought you could,
[30:01] but.
[30:03] And I guess my other question is, do you feel like a transformation is.
[30:07] I feel like the connotation is that it's positive,
[30:14] Tina Donovan: but I didn't think about it. Yeah, I definitely think the connotation is that it's positive. And I think that's how we'll probably use it. But I just use it. But. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right.
[30:27] It is probably possible to have a negative transformation.
[30:32] Tara Bansal: My struggle with the word is part of this is with Martha Beck. Like, she talks about transformation and the example she always uses is like becoming a butterfly. You're a caterpillar.
[30:47] You're one thing. You go into this chrysalis and you get all gooey and dissolve and then you become.
[30:57] Tina Donovan: You emerge something else.
[30:59] Tara Bansal: Yeah, something else.
[31:01] And I think that's why we. We reacted in that. It was intimidating.
[31:08] But part of me is wondering,
[31:11] it doesn't have to be a whole new thing going from a caterpillar to a butterfly, but I don't know, shaving off some layers that you get to see a different part of.
[31:25] Of yourself, or. I'm trying to think of a good analogy, but that it doesn't have to be something completely different.
[31:33] It's just more.
[31:35] More gradual or smaller.
[31:39] Tina Donovan: And.
[31:40] Tara Bansal: Yeah, and to me also, a little bit of. You can have an internal transformation that may not be visible to other people.
[31:53] Tina Donovan: I. I definitely think that is possible.
[31:58] Tara Bansal: Do you feel like you've had transformations in the past? Like, do you have examples?
[32:07] Tina Donovan: No, I would say I've had a lot of transitions, but not trans, but.
[32:13] Tara Bansal: And the one that comes to mind for me was like, becoming a mom was a huge.
[32:20] Tina Donovan: Yeah, but again, I think.
[32:24] I guess. Yeah, I guess you can sort of start nitpicking, but I mean, a lot of those changes you can't control.
[32:32] You know what I mean? And that's where I see it more that. More as a transition in terms of the sense that you're reacting to things versus.
[32:43] But I don't know.
[32:46] How about you? Would you say you've had transformations in your life.
[32:50] Tara Bansal: I mean, the, like becoming a parent and being a mother, I feel like, was a huge. Just of the responsibilities and your life changes so drastically.
[33:03] Tina Donovan: Every aspect of it changes. Yeah.
[33:06] Tara Bansal: I mean, the other, for me. And this to me is another question of after my divorce. Like, I feel like I was intentional in, like, trying to make changes and be happier and.
[33:28] But I don't know that I transform.
[33:32] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[33:33] Tara Bansal: I don't know.
[33:33] Tina Donovan: And.
[33:34] Tara Bansal: And that's, I guess part of why this is a good. Or maybe not so good theme is just you can view it different ways.
[33:47] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[33:48] I mean, you know, you mentioned a negative transformation. I mean,
[33:53] I guess,
[33:55] I guess that's a question is like, what happens if you try to transform and you fail,
[34:02] you know.
[34:04] Yeah.
[34:05] Tara Bansal: But even, like, to me, is there any feeling.
[34:10] Tina Donovan: That's what I guess I'm asking.
[34:11] Tara Bansal: I guess I feel like there's always.
[34:13] And I think there's the saying, like,
[34:16] there's no failing, just learning.
[34:19] But I. I guess I was thinking of a transformation,
[34:27] something.
[34:28] And once again, like, the way you're defining it, like, something happens and in a way, like, you never fully recover and you,
[34:39] like, your world gets smaller.
[34:43] Yeah.
[34:43] Tina Donovan: Philosophy. Like, everything about.
[34:46] Tara Bansal: And I, I. That's what I was thinking of as a negative transformation of just you kind of collapse and never fully. Yeah.
[34:55] Tina Donovan: Like a trauma of some kind of that. Yeah.
[34:59] Tara Bansal: So, yeah. The one that comes to mind, and I feel like it came from the divorce was, you know, like, yes, there was a transition that caused it.
[35:09] And I think a lot of transformations do come from transitions,
[35:15] but not necessarily specific events. Yeah.
[35:17] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[35:18] Tara Bansal: But not necessarily. Can you think of an example of someone that you've seen gone through a transformation?
[35:31] Tina Donovan: That's a really good question.
[35:35] Tara Bansal: Even in a book, I guess. Or someone you know personally,
[35:42] Tina Donovan: I don't know.
[35:44] Do you know of anybody?
[35:45] I wish I had had more time, honestly, to think about this.
[35:50] Like, I think I have. I'm just having trouble coming up with.
[35:55] Tara Bansal: I think the most obvious one are like, the People magazine where they show the people who have lost a hundred pounds or whatever, like. And that's like a physical transformation,
[36:07] I think then does affect so many other parts of your life.
[36:16] And that's what. Maybe we're making the word too big. But, like,
[36:20] when someone changes jobs that can change or transform,
[36:26] you know, their life and how they're living.
[36:32] Tina Donovan: Well, I mean, I guess that a big question is, like, do you see retirement as a transition or as a transformation?
[36:40] Tara Bansal: I mean, and I think to your point, it's always a transition. It's. Can you or do you want to make it a transformation?
[36:50] Tina Donovan: Transformation, Yes. I think that's. That's probably the key right there.
[36:54] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[36:56] As I'm thinking, like, I feel like who we are stays a lot the same.
[37:04] Our essential self is the life coaching term.
[37:10] And so with the transformation,
[37:15] it can be like taking off masks or these shoulds or expectations around us that may not fit anymore.
[37:29] I guess that's the thing.
[37:31] Tina Donovan: Or have been too heavy, you know, and burdens in the sense that.
[37:37] Tara Bansal: But that's. Where is it.
[37:38] Tara Bansal: The.
[37:39] Tara Bansal: The inner core part doesn't really change.
[37:42] It's just like you're almost coming home to that.
[37:49] And maybe it's both, but it's also like this discovering of more who you are and what like lights you up and feels good.
[38:03] I don't know.
[38:04] Not explaining it well.
[38:06] Tina Donovan: No,
[38:07] you are. I mean,
[38:09] and these are things that I think hopefully this season will explore more. Yeah, I mean, I do think there's. There's a lot of questions around what it is, and I think for most people it will.
[38:27] The answers are probably very individual.
[38:32] Tara Bansal: Like, I was thinking of our grandfather,
[38:36] like after his heart attack,
[38:38] I feel like he ate very differently and I feel like started living differently,
[38:46] more healthy.
[38:48] Would you consider that a transformation? I guess even, like, I think it's a little bit of. What do you consider a transformation?
[38:57] Yeah.
[38:58] And everybody can decide that for themselves.
[39:02] Tina Donovan: Right.
[39:03] Tara Bansal: Do you want a transformation for you?
[39:10] Tina Donovan: I mean, that's another good question.
[39:13] Like, what motivates?
[39:15] If we're saying that it's proactive, intentional,
[39:19] then yeah. Then you have to want it. Right.
[39:23] In some sense or some level,
[39:26] I guess. Unless you are,
[39:30] and this is where I guess some of it is, the semantics of it.
[39:34] Are you taking a transition and by the act of being proactive or intentional around some of the circumstances,
[39:47] making it into a transformation.
[39:50] Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah.
[39:52] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[39:53] Tara Bansal: And.
[39:55] Tara Bansal: And that's where I. But I do feel. I feel like a lot of transformations happen because of transitions. And I just think in a way that's like easier or more motivating to make it happen.
[40:09] But I also believe that some people do it without there being a crisis or this like life quake or something else. They just make that work towards it.
[40:25] Tina Donovan: You would not say that someone who has transformed has completely changed their identity. You're saying that you keep a core of who you are and an essential piece of yourself stays the same regardless.
[40:43] Tara Bansal: That's what I think.
[40:44] But I don't know. I'm kind of questioning.
[40:52] And I think it's to varying degrees,
[40:54] but yeah.
[40:55] Because even that, like,
[40:57] your identity can change,
[41:03] but that's still often a core part, I think, of how we view ourselves.
[41:10] So I don't know.
[41:13] A lot of messy questions.
[41:16] Tina Donovan: Right. And this is why we were both kind of intimidated about undertaking this as a theme. So we'll have to see how it goes.
[41:28] Tara Bansal: I mean, one question. Do you think you can transform without blowing up your life? Can it be
[41:40] Tina Donovan: a series of small changes? Um, yeah.
[41:45] Tara Bansal: And I think. Okay. And then that goes to like, is that a transformation? It's just more gradual.
[41:52] Tina Donovan: Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to that question you asked, like, can you transform without having people see it?
[42:03] Yeah, that was. That was one of the questions you asked earlier.
[42:07] Yeah.
[42:08] Tara Bansal: And for me,
[42:09] the transformation I want. And everybody who has listened to any of these episodes know I want to feel lighter and feel more time, abundance.
[42:24] And that is what.
[42:27] And I guess part of me is like, is that a transformation?
[42:31] For me, I think it will. Would be just the difference in how I want to feel will affect every
[42:40] Tina Donovan: aspect of your life. Yeah. And. And your sense of self.
[42:45] Tara Bansal: Yeah, yeah. But then when I say that, I feel like if that were to happen,
[42:52] Tina Donovan: I think
[42:54] Tara Bansal: other things you could see would also be visible. Yeah. Like be impacted and be visible. So.
[43:08] Tina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah. It's a big topic. It's a intimidating theme, and we're going to see where it takes us. Right.
[43:21] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Here's a. Do you feel like there's a difference between transformation and self improvement?
[43:35] Tina Donovan: No, not really.
[43:36] Tara Bansal: Okay.
[43:38] Tina Donovan: I mean, I think you can have self improvement without transformation,
[43:42] but hopefully, I mean, this goes back to whether you can have a negative transformation,
[43:48] you know, but I think if.
[43:51] Hopefully if you're transforming,
[43:53] it's a positive and intentional thing that brings about self improvement. No.
[44:01] Tara Bansal: Yeah. I guess I.
[44:06] And some of this is like the connotation around the word, but self improvement is,
[44:10] I think, of tactics or things you do.
[44:16] Yeah.
[44:17] And I guess that can lead to a transformation, but I think of a transformation as bigger,
[44:28] so I don't know.
[44:28] Tina Donovan: That's what I was saying. Like, you can have self improvement without transformation, but you hope that transformation will have self improvement, will result in self improvement. Yeah. I don't know. To me, they're connected, but the one can exist without the other, whereas I don't think the other can exist on its own.
[44:51] Tara Bansal: I mean, do you think transformation. I think we could. Is easier or harder during midlife? I think some parts make it easier in some persons.
[45:07] Tina Donovan: Yeah. I mean, I think that it Will depend on the person. I mean, in a sense, you have sort of these external circumstances as we age that kind of can make it easier to make big, big changes in your life.
[45:27] But,
[45:30] like, I'm not sure that's true for everyone.
[45:33] Yeah.
[45:36] Tara Bansal: And I think what makes it harder is the grooves in our brain are already escape.
[45:43] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[45:44] Tara Bansal: The default is easy, you know, to just keep doing things.
[45:48] Tina Donovan: Right. I mean, I think we talked about this before, how as you get older, there's just. There's.
[45:55] You get set in routines, there's less things that are new.
[46:00] Like, I think trying things becomes more difficult.
[46:04] Yeah. So, yeah, I think that is true.
[46:08] Tara Bansal: But the other side is, I do think there are big changes that occur. Circumstances.
[46:14] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[46:15] Tara Bansal: Like a health crisis or seeing.
[46:19] Tina Donovan: Leaving a job or stopping.
[46:21] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Or losing a good friend or your family member, you know, that makes you realize.
[46:29] Tina Donovan: Or just having more time. Yeah. You can think about it and make it more proactive versus just reactive.
[46:38] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Yeah. And so in that way, I feel like often in midlife you have more bandwidth to ha. Like,
[46:46] even have the time to think about some of these things. When your kids are young,
[46:51] you don't, you know, you're for.
[46:54] Tina Donovan: When you're working.
[46:55] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[46:56] Tina Donovan: You're working zillion hours.
[46:57] Tara Bansal: And another thing.
[46:58] Tina Donovan: Yeah.
[46:59] Tara Bansal: So part of the. Just the different phase. Wow. Any last comments or questions?
[47:08] Tina Donovan: No, I think we'll see. Yeah. I'm excited.
[47:13] Tara Bansal: It does feel intimidating. I do. That's the perfect word. It does feel intimidating, but I feel
[47:20] Tina Donovan: like that's not a reason not to do it.
[47:23] Tara Bansal: Yeah, we're. We're going to give it a go, so. Well, we're excited to be back and we would love to hear from you, but thank you for listening.
[47:35] Tara Bansal: So each season of messy middlescence, we have ended the episodes with something different.
[47:42] In season one,
[47:44] it was a quote or a poem. In season two,
[47:48] it was a recommendation from Tina or I.
[47:52] And season three were connection challenges.
[47:56] For season four,
[47:58] either Tina or I.
[48:00] This is Tara or our guest.
[48:03] We are going to ask them something that is bringing them joy right now.
[48:09] And my item is just seeing and hearing my two boys play ping pong.
[48:18] They.
[48:20] They do it a lot and they ask each other, can you play ping pong now? Would you like a study break and play ping pong?
[48:28] They are just to see and hear them together and how much fun they're having and witnessing the joy is something that is bringing me genuine joy right now.
[48:43] Tina and I both felt like focusing on joy and noticing joy and being on the lookout for more joy in our lives and in our day to day is something we all could use.
[48:59] And so that is how we are going to end every episode. And I hope you will also start being on the lookout and noticing where you are experiencing joy in your own life.
[49:14] Thank you.
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Right now, Tara is finding joy in something simple: hearing and watching her two boys play ping pong together.
They ask each other to play, take study breaks together, laugh and genuinely enjoy each other’s company. Witnessing their relationship and the joy they find in being together is bringing her genuine joy, too.