57. The Conversations That Matter Most: Estate Planning with Paul Stafford
“[Estate planning} is not as much about the money. It’s family dynamics, it’s emotions, it’s grief, it’s trauma.”
On a recent walk with a close friend, Tina learned that her friend and her husband had an upcoming appointment to complete their wills. Tina replied how reviewing and updating their wills was something she and her husband wanted to do as well. The friend sheepishly corrected Tina that they were not updating their wills but were actually doing them for the first time. Tina’s friend is in her mid-50’s, highly educated, owns multiple homes and has three children in their early 20’s. She explained how they had intended to do their wills since their children were young, but only began the process after pressure from their financial advisor.
Tina was surprised they had not drawn up wills before this but only mildly so. By coincidence, Tara and Tina had just finished a conversation a few days earlier with Paul Stafford, a professional estate planner. Tina realized that her friend was the “real-life person” behind the statistics when it comes to estate planning: most of us know this is something we need to do and yet it is so easy to procrastinate and put off doing it.
In speaking with Paul, it becomes obvious why this happens. Estate planning is the convergence of three topics most people have some difficulties with: money, emotions, and the actual realization that you will die. Still, as Paul states quite clearly, “hope is not a plan”. And everyone – no matter your age, net worth or family – needs some form of an estate plan.
The compelling conversation we have with Paul is a little bit practical, a little bit instructional, and extremely motivational. He explains through stories from his own life and decades of professional experiences why it matters to have a say in what happens after you die—and why that clarity is a gift not only to our loved ones but also to yourself. He encourages us to think beyond wills and trusts and ask deeper questions: What has my life meant? What do I hope to pass on? How do I want to care for the people I love after I am gone? What conversations should happen while I still have the chance to have them?
Topics discussed in today's episode include:
The basic documents every person over 18 should have and the conversations worth having before completing these documents;
Why estate planning is not just for wealthy families;
What probate is and why many families hope to avoid it;
The differences between a will, a revocable (“living”) trust, and an irrevocable trust;
Why so many estate plans fail to accomplish what people intended;
The reasons to revisit an estate plan created years or even decades ago;
How to approach conversations with parents who continue to postpone estate planning;
The challenges the digital age creates for families after someone dies;
The value of bringing together your accountant, estate planner, financial planner and other advisors;
The unique planning considerations that arise when children become legal adults;
The deeper questions worth asking: what has my life meant; what do I want to pass on; And how do I want to be remembered.
Paul explains that estate planning is ultimately about relationships, legacy and caring for the people we leave behind. The documents matter but they are simply tools that help start important conversations and then hopefully provide guidance to future difficult moments.
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[00:22] Christina Donovan: Welcome to Messy Middle Essence.
[00:24] This is a podcast where we talk honestly about the changes to challenges, connections and gifts that come with midlife.
[00:32] Nothing too polished, just real conversations that remind us we're not alone.
[00:38] So let's dive in.
[00:40] Tara Bansal: Hello. Hello. This is Tara Conti Bansal and I am excited to have Christina Conti Donovan and Paul Stafford here with us today on Messy Middlescence.
[00:54] I met Paul through an accountability slash mastermind group of Carl Richards Society of Advice and I just felt like he was a kindred spirit. I loved his wisdom and I have very much enjoyed getting to know him and thought he would be a great person to have here on Messy Middlescence.
[01:21] He was a financial advisor and right now he is specializing in estate planning.
[01:29] And that is something to me that's a little outside my comfort zone. Even though I am a financial planner.
[01:38] It is an area that is very technical and I feel like bang for your buck can make a huge, huge difference for those people that need estate planning. I think we all need estate planning.
[01:54] And the other tricky thing with estate planning is all the emotions around it.
[02:00] And Paul also is incredible at that.
[02:05] His wife is a therapist, so I don't know if that's what has helped him with that aspect of it.
[02:13] But thank you so much, Paul for being here with us today. I am thrilled to have you.
[02:19] Paul Stafford: Well, I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.
[02:22] Tara Bansal: I'd like to start just with our normal question. So what would you like people to know about you?
[02:29] Paul Stafford: Well, on the emotional thing,
[02:31] I have a friend who teaches emotional intelligence and I took the first test, they were like, oh, let's see how you rank. And I failed it.
[02:39] Tara Bansal: I can't believe that.
[02:40] Paul Stafford: It was horrible. So it was been this probably been 20 years ago, this 20 thing to be like you said, with my wife's counselor,
[02:48] you know, it's the daily counsel and it's helping me understand,
[02:51] you know, the anger, the feelings, the emotion, you know, what's behind it.
[02:55] And that's been very, very helpful too, especially like you say with estate planning, because it's not as much about the money,
[03:01] it's family dynamics,
[03:03] it is the emotions. It's grief, it's trauma. It's so much something else about me that's I find odd is I read my first will when I was like nine years old.
[03:14] Tara Bansal: What?
[03:15] Christina Donovan: Wow, that is.
[03:16] Paul Stafford: My siblings and I were playing at my grandparents house and we were, you know, hiding, playing hide and seek, hiding in closets, hiding in strange places. And I found this weird colorful paper, you know, held the Designs at the top like they used to do on Will's.
[03:28] And I read it and found out my grandfather was not my biological grandfather.
[03:34] Tara Bansal: That's how you found out?
[03:35] Paul Stafford: That's how I found out. And I also found out that he was disinheriting my mom because she was not his biological child.
[03:43] So of course I go to my older sisters and you know, teenage, you know, the older sisters always know everything and they're like, yep. I'm like, how come I didn't know this?
[03:50] And it was just shocking to me.
[03:52] And it continued that way through till he died and she was disinherited. Brother's got everything.
[03:57] And it's just,
[03:59] it's things like that in my life that have really led me to having a passion towards this.
[04:06] You know, the things that my grandmother went through with that thinking her daughter was being disinherited because it wasn't his. I mean, it's just things like that that just drive me crazy.
[04:15] And when I was an advisor, most of the work I did was in the trust and estate world.
[04:19] It was with high net worth families doing really complicated stuff. And I just loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. So over the time I've been trying to **** off, you know, people like you, Tara,
[04:29] everything else,
[04:31] you know, the true planners, the people that really can connect those dots to where it's like, hey, I'll really focus on this or last few years, I just exclusively started there.
[04:41] So it's my passion, it's my love. It's. I mean, wake me up at 4, keep me up till midnight doing reading, estate plans and I will do it and enjoy it.
[04:49] Tara Bansal: Wow.
[04:49] Paul Stafford: Not get fired.
[04:50] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And I should have mentioned the name of your company which is flying solo.
[04:55] And I love that name.
[04:59] We've talked about that a few times. But just like the way you can interpret that one is for just widows.
[05:06] You know, people who have had to go through the loss of a spouse and they are flying solo often need updated estate planning documents and start thinking about things at that time too.
[05:22] And what I hope we're going to talk about a little bit today is for those empty nesters thinking about their launching their young adult and what they also need as they are starting to fly solo also.
[05:37] Paul Stafford: And it goes, I mean, widowers as well. I mean typically you got like with my wife's family,
[05:43] mom died first and the family, she was the glue.
[05:47] So you can lose that and you have those family relationships are really strained because she was the one that kept everybody together.
[05:53] So it is interesting what Flying solo looks like, whether it's male, female,
[05:57] or it's, you know, younger adult that's single,
[06:00] it's. It's trying to get ahead of that as well so that we can do what needs to be done before,
[06:07] you know, somebody else is taking over the reins for us. For us.
[06:11] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Well, tell us where you grew up a little bit about your family.
[06:17] Paul Stafford: I was born in Texas, grew up in Oklahoma. I'm in Colorado as well, in the western slope, on a ranch out there.
[06:24] And then went to,
[06:25] back to Oklahoma and then went to college in Boston. So that was an eye opening experience to kind of get out of the culture I was in, you know, in that southwest culture.
[06:35] Very eye opening, you know, old money, new money,
[06:38] a lot of those dynamics were really incredible. And then after college ended up, we had a ranch in Wyoming and then had moved to Montana since then. So I've been In Montana about 20 years,
[06:50] Wyoming about pain. So really love the mountain culture,
[06:54] the kind of live and let live,
[06:56] the independent spirit.
[06:59] And two, the mountain culture is getting people from all over. It's amazing,
[07:03] you know, how many different.
[07:05] You name a state and it's like I can probably list somebody that lives nearby that we know that's from there.
[07:10] So a lot of people have been moving here.
[07:12] So it's really added a dynamic,
[07:16] a diversity that is really cool.
[07:19] So it's nice. But yeah, so that's where we are.
[07:22] Tara Bansal: Where in Montana?
[07:24] Paul Stafford: Billings, which is south central, just north of Wyoming. So not in Bozeman, the uber cool now, but not there. So.
[07:34] Tara Bansal: And how did you meet your wife?
[07:37] Paul Stafford: It was at a church picnic.
[07:39] I heard her laugh.
[07:41] You'll think this is crazy. I probably shouldn't share this much, but anyway,
[07:46] she. She had four kids with her and I thought, how cool. Always wanted a big family. It's like, wow, there it is right there. And they were great kids. Well, found out there were nieces and nephews.
[07:54] She had zero children.
[07:57] It was in Riverton, which is a very small town.
[08:01] So the number of young people still there was not many.
[08:04] So it was pretty easy to find each other and connected. She had.
[08:10] I mean, it's rural America. I mean, I love rural urban. I mean there's so pros and cons. But she was there. She was local,
[08:18] fell in love, got married eight, nine months later pretty quickly. Been married now 37 years, so.
[08:26] Tara Bansal: And how many kids do you have?
[08:28] Paul Stafford: I have two kids, four grandkids.
[08:31] Oldest daughter's in Denver with her two grandkids, and husband and son is here with his Wife and two children,
[08:37] so love the grandchildren.
[08:40] Christina Donovan: That's nice.
[08:42] Tara Bansal: What can you share about your messy middle essence or midlife journey? Did you have any big ahas or
[08:52] Paul Stafford: changes or what's the middle age? What age is like to me? Is it the sandwich generation that we're in? Is it?
[09:01] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I any of that.
[09:04] Paul Stafford: Like last week found out my dad was going in for a second surgery. He's pushing 90,
[09:10] and it was like, you jump on a plane and go, they're in Oklahoma.
[09:13] So it's that. And then you got children, you got grandchildren. It's just that,
[09:18] I mean, messy is a perfect world for it. But I love one of the counseling books my wife has. It's relationships A Mess worth Making.
[09:26] And I think there's a lot of truth to that. It's like, wow, we can look at all the messes, but it's like, it's so worth it, you know, so, so worth it.
[09:33] So to be in that sandwich is a challenge.
[09:37] You know, having the parents and the siblings were still trying to struggle with, you know, how do you handle that?
[09:41] And, you know, then the kids and the in laws and the family,
[09:46] it's worth it. I love it. But it's just a lot of that.
[09:50] Like when my wife's parents died, she's one of six, not as many as you, but, you know, big family,
[09:55] you know, how was that going to go? Because the estate plan was very limited.
[09:59] Typically it may say, hey, we're going to split it evenly, but that's about it. And that's not near enough to keep families together. So that was a challenge. But it worked out really well.
[10:11] Shockingly. That's where sometimes you never know. That's where I love the phrase, you don't know somebody until you split an inheritance with them.
[10:19] And it goes literally both ways. I've seen people, it's like, oh, that's going to be a train wreck and it's perfect. And others, you're like, that'll be perfect and it's a train wreck.
[10:27] It's.
[10:29] You never know.
[10:31] Tara Bansal: Hmm. Yeah.
[10:32] Christina Donovan: That's so interesting.
[10:34] Tara Bansal: So where are you now? What are you focused on
[10:38] Paul Stafford: as far as work or home or both home. It's being intentional with the grandchildren.
[10:45] I missed my children growing up. I was working. We were ranching. I had other businesses going, so I was working seven days a week and I missed it.
[10:53] I really did.
[10:55] Um,
[10:56] so trying to not miss the second chance. It's like, okay, there's these little kids and I want to do it right this time. So trying to be intentional there,
[11:05] work wise. It's just like I said, I love doing this. And like I was listening to an attorney yesterday and he said, I want to. His passion is to free up probate court.
[11:15] He's like, probate court's a nightmare. He's in California. He says it's a nightmare and we need to do everything we can. He said, I don't care what people do or how they do it.
[11:23] It was just an interesting take on it,
[11:25] you know, on how to help the 60, 70, 80% of people that have done nothing or the 90% of people that have plans and they'll fail because they're not going to do what they want.
[11:36] So it's, you know, how do I get the word out? How do I do more and more of that? Is that's what's driving the rest of me? It's to do more of that.
[11:45] Tara Bansal: Can you explain what probate court is? Because I'm not sure everybody fully understands.
[11:51] Paul Stafford: Well, there's basically three choices. You can have no plan, no estate plan. So nothing in writing say what happens when you die.
[11:58] The second could be a will.
[11:59] So you have something to say. Here's what happens.
[12:02] Both of those end up in probate court.
[12:04] So the will is basically instructions to the judge to say, here's what we're going to do. And then the judge reads it, interprets it, says, yep, that's accurate, that's fair, that's good, that's whatever.
[12:13] And also can hear from everybody else that wants to speak into it, whether it's debtors, family, whatever,
[12:18] and they make a decision, here's what happened. And that's where there's no will, which he has no instructions or she has no instructions on what to do. And they kind of follow the state laws on who gets what,
[12:28] which can be crazy. You know, it can be. I mean, you just kind of go down the list of family situations and what it could mean for those that's unique and not what the person wanted or the beneficiaries want.
[12:41] And then the third is a trust that can.
[12:45] Can keep you out of probate court if everything's done properly.
[12:48] So probate courts, it's court, it's judges, it's lawyers, it's them deciding. It's out of your control,
[12:55] it's in their control,
[12:56] and it's not cheap, it's not easy. Some states are better than others. Some states are.
[13:01] Tara Bansal: I was going to say some states are known to be really long and hard and expensive through probate versus other states are not as bad.
[13:11] Paul Stafford: Yeah. And that's pretty well regardless, it can be an easy one. That's still long and hard because they're backed up versus other states that it can be,
[13:20] you know, pretty easy if everything's clean.
[13:23] But that is probate court.
[13:26] Tara Bansal: So what should people age 50 and over be thinking about with regards to their estate planning?
[13:35] Paul Stafford: It's funny you say 50, it's somewhere in that range when people start thinking more along those lines,
[13:40] which to me more recently I've been like 18 year olds need it, they're going off to college, so it's graduation season, but we'll talk about that later.
[13:47] But you know, 50 and older start to think about legacy.
[13:51] What have I done, what has my life meant,
[13:54] what is important to me, what do I want to see pass to the next generation? Whether it's wisdom,
[13:59] whether it's assets,
[14:01] whether whatever it is, they start to think about that.
[14:05] So I think that's when the conversations start for them to really start. You know, if it's a couple, each other, if it's a family, what are they going to have have there?
[14:14] Most 50 year olds still have parents around, so it's like what's happening there?
[14:18] A lot of the calls I get are from 50 year olds, 40 year olds thinking, hey,
[14:24] parents don't have anything and we're going to be the ones holding the bag,
[14:28] you know, and holding mom or dad's hands as they're struggling with grief. And we end up in probate or trust or whatever we have, we don't know what's going on,
[14:35] what's going to happen.
[14:36] And a lot of times too, that's people that are in the family business and they're like this, I mean we had a company going too.
[14:43] How are we going to handle that? Much less the personal side. So they really start to think about that and get a little more angst and anxiety about having something in place.
[14:55] So is your question what should they start doing?
[14:58] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Or start thinking about?
[15:01] Paul Stafford: Yeah, I, I think that is start to think about it and recognize that.
[15:06] I mean I was glad when I turned 60 because I've known way too many 50 year olds that died and that just seems crazy to me. Lost her brother in law, early 50s.
[15:14] He was actually an estate planning attorney and that's probably one of the early things that really lit my fire about what he does or did and but he, you know, it gets the diagnosis, you know, gone in six months.
[15:28] So I think it really comes home. So we've lost friends or whatever. So I think it really is truly.
[15:32] Don't let that friend's death be wasted in a sense,
[15:38] you know, use it, you know, as an impetus to continue to do something yourself and not be in that statistic that has done nothing.
[15:48] You know, whether it's communicating,
[15:50] whether it's okay, what does care for my family look like my spouse,
[15:54] my children and just think of how to lead things. Well,
[16:01] I don't think most people do well with a million dollars dropped in their lap.
[16:05] So. Especially for a 50 year old, and you're probably talking 20 something year olds,
[16:10] is that really what you want?
[16:11] If the car wreck or the plane crash should happen,
[16:15] that's actually happened in high school. It's kind of funny. Was in Oklahoma in high school. Not funny. It's very sad.
[16:21] But parents were in Wyoming, near where our ranch was.
[16:26] Plane crashed, killed both parents.
[16:28] You know, two high school children,
[16:29] you know, all of a sudden their world changed dramatically. So I think when we hit 50, we start to think a little more clearly about we're not gonna live forever,
[16:39] but what can we do about it?
[16:41] Tara Bansal: What advice do you have for, I mean, people whose parents like, they do not know if their parents even have estate documents and what they say.
[16:56] Paul Stafford: Another great book I love is How People Change.
[16:59] And I thought, man, it's going to be the greatest thing. I can go help people change.
[17:02] Well, it starts with changing ourselves.
[17:04] Very disappointing book. It's like, no, I don't want to change me, I want to change them.
[17:08] So I think a lot of times lead by example,
[17:11] okay?
[17:13] Because I think it helps parents too. Because a lot of times the elderly parents are thinking, well, if I leave it to you,
[17:19] what happens if you die? Does it go to your spouse?
[17:23] Does it go to his kids? Does it go to her kids? Does it, you know, they don't know what's happening. And that's causing them some grief too. Going, well, how do we do ours without knowing what yours is?
[17:33] So sometimes, you know, for the parents it's to do the same thing. It's, well, get yours in line and then show them.
[17:40] Like I said earlier, I'm a big fan of financial planners helping connect a lot of the dots because sometimes people's issues, tax,
[17:47] you know, what am I going to owe for estate tax? What's that going to look like?
[17:52] How do these things pass? What happens with an ira? What happens with the roth? They think they know and they're like, I think I've got this down, but I'm not sure.
[17:59] So to me it's good conversations with your planner about,
[18:03] okay, what's going on, what do I need to be doing? On that financial side, maybe an insurance person that can help on that risk management side,
[18:11] maybe somebody like me that's more of a strategist on the estate planning side that's like, okay, what's the big picture look like here?
[18:17] Because that's really what we all want to do, is connect those dots.
[18:20] So it's the financial, it's the legal and the tax, but it's also that relational side.
[18:24] And again, I think that's where the planner who's known the family for a long, long time can really bring a lot to the table as far as,
[18:33] you know, here's the dynamics they've seen,
[18:35] here's what they see needs to happen to help connect the dots.
[18:39] So it's quite a team effort to try to do it. So it's again the 50 year old somebody or 6 year olds thinking, what do we need to do? It's like we need to get those things connected.
[18:50] And that's going to take more than just their mind. It's going to take others to help them have an outside perspective perhaps sometimes.
[18:59] Tara Bansal: I mean, I have a good friend that she is trying to convince her parents to do their estate documents and I think they had somewhat from when she was young, you know, but she's now almost 50 and it's just,
[19:17] they don't want to do it. They keep putting it off. And I think that's very common.
[19:23] What advice do you have for that?
[19:27] Paul Stafford: I mean it's recognize the struggle. I mean it's trying to understand what do they fear?
[19:32] Tara Bansal: What's getting in the way?
[19:33] Paul Stafford: Yeah, yeah. What's getting in the way? What's holding them up?
[19:37] A lot of times it's, you know, maybe they want to do something unique and don't want to tell the kids. That's where I think, I think that's part of your point.
[19:44] That's where it's harder for the kids to step in because they're typically the beneficiaries. And if the parents are like, we think you guys are set. We're giving it all to charity.
[19:53] Kids may not want to hear that.
[19:55] Or like ranches in this part of the world, we may be going to lock them up for generations because we're the fifth generation, we want to keep it that way.
[20:03] Or a family business,
[20:04] you know, they haven't figured out how to tell the son that the daughter's going to be the one that's going to own it and run it because he's Fine as a manager, but he's not an owner.
[20:14] She is.
[20:15] You know, it can be a lot of those relational things they just don't know how in the world to sit down and figure out.
[20:22] And two, a lot of times when people go to the attorney,
[20:24] their mind, the clock's just ticking.
[20:27] The fees, the fees, the fees.
[20:29] So that's where again, I come back to the planner of estate surrounded, just like me that it's like we're not hourly. We're typically,
[20:36] you know, doing a project based or whatever to where it's like. And more conversational about it. Unless stuck on, well, we just need to get the legal docs done.
[20:44] Tara Bansal: Yeah,
[20:45] I'll jump in. Yeah, like that's where I feel like not all estate attorneys will have those conversations. They just want to get it done and almost follow their recipe in a sense,
[20:59] instead of having these deeper conversations like you are Paul, like, what do you really want and what,
[21:08] I don't know, it's a little different. Every family is different and trying to uncover that.
[21:13] Paul Stafford: But,
[21:14] well, and I think too, the attorney feels that pressure too.
[21:17] The good ones, I know they're like, I know people don't want to pay me, you know, 650 bucks an hour to have this kind of a conversation,
[21:25] you know, coffee chat.
[21:26] But it's like,
[21:28] hey, I think it's worth it. But they still don't want to do it. I mean, they just can't get over that because that is a ton of money to them.
[21:35] So that's where a lot of times too, it's,
[21:38] I mean, some of the best meetings I've had, you have the CPA there, you have the planner there, you had me there,
[21:43] you had the parents there and maybe the business coach as well there,
[21:50] hashing through these things and everybody giving their different angle and the parents typically sitting there listening and then at the end they can go, okay, now we're educated. We feel like we understand what's going on and can make a wise decision because making a horrible decision is just nobody wants to do that.
[22:07] So those, and those are outrageously expensive meanings in one sense, but in another sense they are incredibly cheap because it's going to happen.
[22:16] You know, to me, one of my favorite phrases, there will be a family meeting,
[22:20] no question is who will be there and when, say a key person is gone,
[22:26] we don't have their mind to work to pull data out of anymore and ideas. And it's like, well, we've tried this.
[22:33] That's outrageously expensive and that is wasteful, you know, Expensive, you know, the early one seems expensive, but it's really gathering so much to where what you come up with is so beautiful.
[22:43] It's worth every penny,
[22:45] tenfold.
[22:47] Tara Bansal: I know you have some stats on how one few people either have documents and or how things go sideways and don't end up going well, do you,
[23:01] do you remember?
[23:02] Paul Stafford: They do. I mean that's where I think I mentioned it. 90% of estate plans fail. And that's fail in more of a technical sense.
[23:07] Tara Bansal: Yeah. What does fail mean when you say that?
[23:10] Paul Stafford: Yeah, I think it means, you know, kind of what the person thought. It's like we're going to split this three ways and we're going to do it at these ages and this is what's going to happen.
[23:18] And by failure that doesn't even happen,
[23:21] you know, another sibling comes in and wants to fight it and all of a sudden we've got an ongoing legal battle to where so much is going to legal fees.
[23:28] That's a failure.
[23:29] You know, it will carry out what it needed to be done. But a lot of times it doesn't consider the widow the widower at all.
[23:36] I just got one this week and I'm like, there's not a word in there what would happen.
[23:40] That that is a big event and a big moment.
[23:43] It's not technically a moment, but it is a big moment. So that's not included in that 90% because that's not really a technical moment that needs to happen. It's all the others that fail.
[23:53] There's a great book called Missing Billionaires and it was written by one of the Long term Capital management people going way back to when the company had all these PhDs and they'd solved the investing world and it blew up.
[24:06] And it's one of the families that was involved in that and they really go through a lot of detail on there should be so many more millionaires and billionaires because of family transitions that happened.
[24:18] Well,
[24:19] they're not, because it fails. And this is people with the best attorneys, the best accountants, the best advisors all the way around.
[24:27] And it fails.
[24:28] So even the technical side fails.
[24:32] And some of it's the technical. But like I said, it can be the widow not cared for, it can be the grandkids that are not challenged. You know, money's just dropped in their lap when they're trust fund babies.
[24:40] And we know how often that turns out. Well,
[24:42] it can,
[24:44] but we can't. Hope is not a plan as we know. So that's where that 70, 60, 70% of people don't have anything.
[24:52] So that's something too. I think that could help maybe those parents to go, you're normal,
[24:56] but who wants to be normal? You're just like most people that don't have anything done or they could be frustrated with, well, the 90% fail. It's like, well, that doesn't have to be.
[25:05] You have the conversations or you know, you're in the failure category. If you have no plan, that's a failure because that's a judge deciding and who wants the government deciding what their family's going to get, who gets what.
[25:17] Tara Bansal: I mean I.
[25:18] Our parents are updating their estate documents right now and I always view it that it's showing.
[25:29] You're trying,
[25:31] trying to think of the words, but you're trying to be thoughtful ahead of time so that both your wishes. But I also think for those that are left behind,
[25:43] they don't have to deal with it and try to figure it out or make all these decisions with lack of information at that time.
[25:51] Do you agree with that?
[25:53] Paul Stafford: I'm not phrasing it well,
[25:55] very, very much. It's,
[25:56] I mean, I hate to call it a mess, but typically we leave behind a mess,
[26:01] especially in the digital world today.
[26:03] I mean it used to be you would just watch the mailbox and you'll figure out every bill they have.
[26:09] I mean, I haven't had bill mail for years,
[26:12] you know, so where are you going to find everything?
[26:16] So it's that I, I try to avoid the organization side because that will stall out most people.
[26:22] One of the biggest what would be the,
[26:26] the devil and the details of estate planning is momentum.
[26:30] You start people organizing.
[26:32] I mean if they're an organized reit, they're priority organized for the rest of us, we are not. And that's going to stall us out completely. So I don't start there at all.
[26:42] So if that's the last thing that gets done, I'm fine with that.
[26:46] But that's a reality in the digital world that we have to consider.
[26:51] And just think every time you do something, how much is looking for your face on your phone to open stuff.
[26:57] Well, we're gone.
[26:59] And we've seen the shows where, you know, they go to the morgue and take the picture. But you know, I mean that those, that it's a crazy world we live in now that it is truly going to be even more messy.
[27:08] And then you get crypto and things like that that are even more complicated.
[27:12] So I try to leave the organization side to more of the planner, the accountant and that's where again that conversation to say, hey, you know, here's what we're doing and working on.
[27:22] Can you help us,
[27:24] you know, put some things together and remind us, oh yeah, you've got that account. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[27:28] And help to connect those dots as well.
[27:32] Tara Bansal: So how do you start if you don't start with the.
[27:37] Paul Stafford: I start with caring. Well, actually I start with the Apple legacy contact because people can be shocked how easy that can be. I mean, you can take your phone that has almost everything on it and know that minute I'm dead, that thing's going to get locked.
[27:52] But that's enables somebody and it's like, well, that took me, you know, two minutes. It's like, exactly. And you just did a huge step forward for the people left behind as far as the mess, they can get your phone and actually get everything off of it, whether it's pictures,
[28:05] passwords, whatever it is, they can use it and work it. I tend to want to go with more caring.
[28:11] You know, what's it look like, Tara? You die.
[28:16] What's it look like if he dies?
[28:18] You know, to help get real, I just call them fire drills. So sometimes I'll do that and people be like, this is a mess.
[28:26] You know, here's first step, here's second step, here's third step to keep that momentum going,
[28:32] to try to help start it. But I think the people do typically care,
[28:36] you know, the less we show that we care, probably the more we care in some ways.
[28:40] But help with that to where it's very real, it's very accurate. And just to think you're gone, what's that look like for the people that are going to be stepping in or you're in a coma in the hospital, who's going to do what?
[28:56] Tara Bansal: So would you mind just stepping or stepping us through the basic documents and what each of them are and generally who you need to name or what they do.
[29:12] Paul Stafford: I mean, probably the most basic are the powers of attorney that every person over 18 needs.
[29:18] The powers of attorney and the HIPAA release. The powers of attorney, there's a healthcare one that you're in the hospital in a coma. What in the world do they do?
[29:25] You've at least laid out some guidelines for the person and who can make those decisions for you.
[29:31] The financial one's similar.
[29:34] You know, you're not able to make financial decisions for yourself for one reason or another. Again, who can make those decisions for you? Who can help guide it?
[29:43] The HIPAA release is just healthcare information.
[29:46] Again, that's where I go with 18 year olds, people in college, single people, whatever. It's like,
[29:50] who is authorized to get this from the hospital?
[29:53] Who can do that?
[29:56] So those are kind of the basic core ones.
[29:59] And those are so easy to get done.
[30:03] They're not simple because there's a lot of variety in what can be in them, how complex they can be. But especially on the healthcare one, I think those are good conversations to have.
[30:13] You know, what do you want? I mean, I don't know what you want. I have nowhere with the idea. Your sister. I mean,
[30:19] it's funny, I did a game once and it's called the Newly Dead game.
[30:25] And you get couples up there. And the last time I did it, I had two sisters. And of course they went. They known each other all their lives,
[30:30] so they knew more, you know, about each other, about what would you want for a funeral, what would you want at your memorial? What would you want for music, what would you want for food?
[30:37] What would.
[30:38] I mean, it just goes through all these different questions that are fascinating,
[30:41] but still, who is that that we want making those decisions for us and go ahead and have that conversation. So they've heard it. I mean, that's where I'm blessed because I get to hear it.
[30:52] You know, I've heard the tone of voice, I've heard the,
[30:55] you know, when they were incredibly emphatic about this or that and that that's a good thing. So it's like I want other people to hear that as well,
[31:03] especially that other person. So we start there. Well, I don't start there usually, but that's. If I had to have anything, it'd be like dopes.
[31:09] Okay.
[31:10] Tara Bansal: And is it better to name several people?
[31:14] Like, is there too many that I.
[31:19] Is more better there in naming people or does that add more complexity?
[31:24] Because sometimes I feel like if multiple people can make healthcare decisions and they disagree,
[31:35] how does that go?
[31:38] Paul Stafford: I mean, those are tricky questions because some people freeze up.
[31:43] I mean, I've seen people freeze up and not be able to. So that's where that successor is handy. So that's where typically it's here's first,
[31:50] here's second, here's third. If first can't, for whatever reason, it's second, it's third.
[31:55] You can do joint.
[31:56] And that can happen.
[31:58] You know, it depends on the people.
[32:00] Are they willing to defer to each other,
[32:03] you know, and be like, you know, this is.
[32:06] What are you calling it? You know, they're able to not fight over it.
[32:10] You know, who's going to unplug mom,
[32:12] you know, that's a tough, tough, tough one.
[32:16] So that's where sometimes joint decisions can help.
[32:20] Or having that successor, that can be a backup going, ah, you know, you know who to call upon. Even if you still get the decision, you can call upon the second one to do it.
[32:28] So to me, two, three.
[32:30] I mean, typically in a couple, it's each other first.
[32:33] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[32:33] Paul Stafford: So it's like, well, okay, you're in a car wreck together.
[32:36] You know, that's. That's a different thing.
[32:38] So you certainly do need that third person or second person, I guess, because each other will be. And then second and a third is. Is good. If for no other reason than just have that thought on, who do we trust?
[32:51] Who's around us,
[32:53] who can,
[32:55] you know, the second one turn to.
[32:58] It just kind of helps lay out who's important. Like, for the longest time on my business, I just had a letter in my top drawer of here's who to call.
[33:07] They will walk you through it. You know, they have no authority, no legal ability, but, you know, these are people that understand what I do all day, every day and can give you tons of insight just naturally.
[33:19] So the more the merrier. I don't.
[33:21] I mean, you get to five or six if you're like, okay,
[33:26] sure, I'll list them. But,
[33:27] you know, we're not.
[33:29] We're not going there. But it could especially, I think, when older people, they're like, well, I can't call my siblings, you know, because they're my age. And,
[33:38] you know, which one of us outlived the other one? And even if we outlive each other, which one of us has Alzheimer's?
[33:43] So that gets harder. For older people or childless couples,
[33:49] that's a big area to work in,
[33:51] because that's a real challenge.
[33:54] And it changes so often.
[33:56] You know, they'll be like, oh, I've got a niece and nephew that can do it. And then 10 years later,
[34:00] nope, we got to change it again.
[34:02] And that's fine, because most things are easy to change.
[34:05] It's easy to have something that's not great and change it to great and then nothing and wait till it's great because there's no such thing. It's that perfection thing.
[34:13] It doesn't happen.
[34:16] So then after those, it's the will,
[34:19] because at least that starts into the basic questions and can at least give instructions to the judge. And they're pretty simple.
[34:27] And then, of course, the trust after that. And typically it's an irrevocable trust, or hate these words Revocable trust to where it's one. You can change it at any moment.
[34:36] I saw you caught that. You're like, ah, no, no, no.
[34:39] And then you would go into the
[34:40] Tara Bansal: irrevocable trust for real, more complex situations, I would say.
[34:45] Paul Stafford: Yeah. Or when you have desires or goals that are much more like locking up the ranch forever. That's irrevocable.
[34:53] Yeah. And the revocable, even at death, turns into an irrevocable.
[34:57] So you're going to end up with the irrevocable trust that can't be changed. That will be the one that does that can't be changed. So you end up there. So that's kind of the sequence.
[35:07] The complicated ones,
[35:10] and I hate to even use that word, but they are typically a little more to them,
[35:14] even if it's just goals. It's like, well, we're not complicated. We just want to control what happens here. And I hate the word control too,
[35:20] but a lot of times it's protection.
[35:23] You know, I want to protect my kids from, you know, they get the money and the spouse wants a boat.
[35:30] I don't want to put my kid in that position to have to say no to their spouse.
[35:34] I'd rather have some things in place that help them,
[35:37] you know, do what needs to be done, do what's best for them.
[35:41] Especially in blended families and things like that. There's a lot of stuff that could happen that. That's when we'll go into the little bit more powerful, that's a better word type trust.
[35:50] That give you a little more management ability and protection for the surviving spouse, for a child, for a grandchild.
[36:00] I started one this week for a great grandchild.
[36:03] Because I push down for generations,
[36:06] just naturally.
[36:08] I mean, we can talk about Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security all day long.
[36:11] You know, people that are born today,
[36:14] what's it going to look like for them?
[36:17] Probably not very pretty. So it's like, you know, everything we can push down further, the better.
[36:23] But that's getting more on the economic side, my personal slant,
[36:26] I mean, for
[36:27] Christina Donovan: me, I'm very ignorant on all of this when I hear the word trust. I feel like you have to have a lot of money to have a trust. Like that is the way that's the connotation association.
[36:43] Like we don't need a trust. Like we don't have enough money to warrant having a trust. Is that.
[36:49] Is there any validation? Is there any validity to that or.
[36:55] Paul Stafford: There is, and I've even heard attorneys say it, you don't have enough to have one. And I'm like, excuse me.
[36:59] Um,
[37:00] I mean, it could be the blended family thing can create all sorts of reasons to have a trust,
[37:06] and that has nothing to do with money. I mean, obviously there's somebody,
[37:09] right?
[37:10] But I, I. And especially as the estate tax limit has gotten higher towards 15 million per person,
[37:17] you know, most people are like, well, we don't need that anymore. And it's like,
[37:20] well, okay,
[37:22] you're 90 years old in Alzheimer's and you can't think for yourself.
[37:27] Power of attorney's fine,
[37:29] but it's not nearly as functional as a trust.
[37:32] Okay,
[37:33] so that again, has nothing to do with money. It's not as much to protect the asset. I mean, there's asset protection trusts that are beautiful things.
[37:41] There's all sorts of reasons. We want trusts that are about assets, but there's all sorts of reasons that are more about people. And again, starting with the care.
[37:50] Caring for family members,
[37:52] caring for what's going to happen and how much do we want already in place? And that's the beauty of a trust. I mean, I'm here today, I'm fine. Trust is available and it's working.
[38:03] And the trust account's there and I can write checks, wife can write checks, whatever. I'm incapacitated.
[38:08] It keeps going.
[38:10] We don't need to rely upon the power of attorney. I'm dead.
[38:13] It keeps going.
[38:15] You know, it hasn't been near the transition mark that it is if you.
[38:19] I'm dead.
[38:20] Including the safety deposit box is now locked up.
[38:23] The bank won't let my spouse in because it was in my name and I'm dead.
[38:26] You know, it's all sorts of things like that that it's just like,
[38:30] it helps us manage and do a transition in a much cleaner way than the non trust methods do.
[38:40] Tara Bansal: Yeah, like I'll jump in. Tina. I was going to say the exact same thing because I do feel like there is this connotation around trust, that it's only people above a certain asset limit.
[38:54] And that is not true if I Revocable and irrevocable trust both sound so similar.
[39:05] So a revocable means you can change it at any time.
[39:09] Christina Donovan: That's what.
[39:10] Tara Bansal: And I use living trust to kind of make it sound different than the irrevocable. But with a living trust, it's as Paul was saying at the very beginning, and maybe we're getting too technical for people, but it's important if you have a living trust, you get to avoid the probate.
[39:30] So it's like if it's done well or right, you don't have to go to the judge and it's declaring all the things you want in that document.
[39:42] So to try, to me, to make it as much more clear than having a will which can be interpreted or can be have things,
[39:54] you know, have to go through different people.
[39:58] With the living trust,
[40:01] it's to me, not really about asset level.
[40:04] I guess if you're below the probate level level, which is very low in some states.
[40:11] Yeah, I, I,
[40:13] I was working with widows in Minnesota,
[40:16] and if,
[40:19] if your name was not on the deed to the house,
[40:22] you couldn't get to it. Like, it was really challenging the way things are set up there.
[40:29] And I don't know, I, I guess we can go down a rabbit hole, but I hope that helps that it's, you know.
[40:36] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I guess I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks that.
[40:41] Tara Bansal: No, I think that is the norm. Because trust people think that's just for people with a lot of money.
[40:48] Paul Stafford: Well, like for me, I charge the same to do a will or to do a trust.
[40:52] I mean, I'm maybe undercharging a touch on the trust and overcharging a touch on the will, but I don't want that to be part of the decision.
[40:58] I want it to be what's best for you. What do you want?
[41:01] And two, to me, a trust is instructions to your survivors,
[41:06] whereas the will is instructions to the judge.
[41:09] And the.
[41:10] Christina Donovan: That's really good. Yeah, that, that I think, actually is a really good depiction of it. It helps you visualize it, I think, a little better.
[41:20] One of the questions I had was,
[41:24] I mean, I think a lot of people who are in their 50s probably do have a will that they made in their 20s or 30s,
[41:33] and they're getting to the point where,
[41:36] like, I should probably look at that document again, because you haven't thought or looked at it in 20 years or 25 years. I mean, what are some of the reasons to go and update that?
[41:46] I mean, what I'm hearing is definitely this idea of control in terms of not just the money, but just,
[41:56] you know, if you end up with Alzheimer's, how you know, what is going to be managed there? And some of the things around that. But what are, Yeah, I guess specifically, what are some of the things that,
[42:05] um, you would want to go back and revisit your will in middle age versus when you were 20 years younger?
[42:11] Paul Stafford: Yeah, a lot of times I want to call it, change it from estate planning to emergency planning,
[42:15] because that's a lot of that trust the different beast.
[42:21] Yeah. I mean, I look at it as when somebody turns 18, they're now an adult, and all of a sudden, you know, they have ability to do stuff. When somebody has a child, that's a big one.
[42:28] When somebody gets married, in some ways that makes it easier to not need it. But when they have a child, certainly because you're dealing with guardian, and that's a,
[42:36] that's a fun one.
[42:38] A lot of fights over that. You know, who's going to take the kids, should we both be gone?
[42:42] But it's very good again to have the discussion and the conversation because you don't want the grandparents fighting, the siblings fighting over them and this poor child. And that's an immediate decision that needs to happen.
[42:52] You know, moving the IRA over. If it's done in six months, what do you do? But the child has to happen right now.
[42:58] You know, somebody has to do that. So that's a biggie. Somebody in their 50s.
[43:03] I mean, that's where the blended families are, biggie biggies.
[43:07] Looking at the dynamics of their children and their situations. You know, married, not married,
[43:14] you know, what's going to happen there? So people start to be like, okay, we need to maybe structure this.
[43:19] Another one is a company that's typically, the value's gone up over time. You know, when it started, it wasn't worth much, but the family company is all of a sudden that's a real asset.
[43:29] So what's going to happen there?
[43:31] And I actually have a friend from high school that buys companies from widows for pennies.
[43:37] So he's done all his life and he owns like refineries. We're not talking tiny companies, we're talking serious ones.
[43:42] And a lot of times that's a biggie. You know, the surviving spouse is like, I don't want this company that took my spouse away from me. I want it get rid of it.
[43:49] And payrolls Friday.
[43:50] And I don't know what to do. My next door neighbor just died and you know, his.
[43:56] We didn't think he was married. Comes to find out he's married.
[43:59] She hasn't been there in 20 years, but he's still married. She's making payroll with family company and I don't know the dynamics between them and the daughters, but it's like, oh, that's interesting.
[44:10] You know, so you get those sorts of things that are big.
[44:15] I think health issues can be one.
[44:18] You know, people all of a sudden think, oh, no, it looks like I'm going to go, we Thought it was going to be the other way.
[44:24] That can sometimes trigger obviously the friends dying and all that stuff. Trigger stuff. But that's not really make it more important. It just makes it real that people need to.
[44:33] So those are just some off the top of my head or you know, like the family business, if you want to keep it in versus just sell it. I mean still you need instructions.
[44:41] That's when you start talking buy sell agreements and things that are in the company to help manage that.
[44:47] Because a lot of times the spouse doesn't want to or if there's kids involved,
[44:52] maybe the kid passes and all of a sudden their spouse is now the owner of the company.
[44:57] So business ones bring up a ton of stuff and just complex assets,
[45:02] any kind of a complex asset, illiquid assets. That's where ranges are huge businesses are huge. Illiquid stuff can really make it much more challenging.
[45:13] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I'll jump in here. Teen. For me,
[45:15] a lot of times a lot has changed in those 20 years and like even who you want to name,
[45:24] you know, as your executor, as the executor is the one that's going to help take care of the estate that maybe you named a,
[45:36] a sibling that you're no longer that close to or you named a friend that you haven't talked to in decades or you know,
[45:46] lots of situations where that it's just like your life and the people in your life have changed and if you have kids like they're older, hopefully you have a better idea of how they are and who may be able to manage an inheritance versus not manage an inheritance.
[46:07] If there's addiction problems or spending problems or things like that, that,
[46:14] that's something like in the trust you can be very clear or more clear on trying to have guardrails for things around that.
[46:28] So. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think for me that a lot of times it's just people have changed that people are named that they don't want anymore.
[46:37] And yeah, I mean,
[46:40] Paul, I really want you to talk a little bit about because I do think there's plenty of us who are recently becoming empty nesters or having children that are over 18 and being launched.
[47:01] What should we be worried about with that?
[47:06] Paul Stafford: Yeah, adulthood is big. As you know, as a planner, I mean a lot of things happen.
[47:10] You know, if there's any utmas or UGMA type accounts that turn to them the day they turn 18 or 21 depending on the state,
[47:17] those things change.
[47:19] All of a sudden they're an adult, they can make decisions,
[47:22] parents. And that's probably one of the hardest moments of my life,
[47:25] you know, taking the kids to college because all of a sudden they are now adults and they're across the country or they're not local.
[47:32] And I mean that changes new car insurance, that changes their ability to make decisions. That's, you know, back to the earlier one about, you know, they're in a car wreck,
[47:42] they're in something happens, they're in the hospital in a coma.
[47:45] What can you do?
[47:47] You know, will the hospital release information to you? And that varies by hospital. It may be a fine experience, but it may be you got to go to court to get power over that person.
[47:57] So those are difficult.
[47:59] I think a lot of that ties back into the earlier thing. How do you get parents to do it?
[48:03] You know, it's how do you get kids to do it and because it truly is their decision.
[48:08] But again, I think it's to give them the freedom because maybe they want to pick a sibling, you know, they got a 22 year old sibling that they want to pick, not the parents.
[48:15] And they're going to feel bad,
[48:16] you know, to not pick the parents because they would be the likely ones, you know, or feel like they should be. So again, it's 18 year old stepping into family dynamics and relational dynamics.
[48:26] It could be a challenge, but it's very important to do and start thinking you're an adult,
[48:32] start thinking like one. You know, all of a sudden you have responsibility when you could just pun it off on your parents. But now all of a sudden it's on you and you get the say and you get the decision so to start doing it.
[48:43] And I think that's where grandparents can step in as well and help. I love it when grandparents again pushing down generations,
[48:50] we're like, hey, I want to sit you down with a financial planner, I want to sit you down with an insurance person, with an estate planning person to help kind of start to connect this to start thinking you're no longer the child to start thinking and maybe the grandparents pay for it all.
[49:03] There's no 18 year old is going to pay for all this for if you will.
[49:08] So it's just helpful for them to start thinking of,
[49:12] wow, I'm out of the house,
[49:14] I'm gone.
[49:16] What could happen and what would happen and to take responsibility,
[49:20] you know, step up.
[49:22] So I don't know if that answered your question.
[49:25] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I mean what, what are the documents in an ideal world that an 18 year old should have prepared?
[49:32] Paul Stafford: Oh yeah. Both the powers of attorney the healthcare and the financial power of attorney and the HIPAA release and okay, I mean
[49:40] Tara Bansal: I know there's some you can do online. Anything's better I think than nothing.
[49:46] Paul Stafford: And then if they're going to college, there's a college form. I think it's a FERPA that will allow the college to talk to the parent because the same thing.
[49:55] Christina Donovan: Yeah, that's a big one. I mean usually you're made aware of that pretty quickly.
[50:00] Like even if there's an issue with like the tuition bill, if as a parent you have no control over that, it all has to go through the student.
[50:08] Paul Stafford: Right. Yeah. So it's a big change for an 18 year old. It's not just you have freedom. Yes, you do. Comes responsibility and has responsibilities. So. Yeah.
[50:22] Tara Bansal: And going to this is bigger than documents. What, what does that mean and how do you encourage that through the conversations?
[50:33] Paul Stafford: Just really, I think that's what the fire drills bring up a lot for people to go, oh wow, that will be. There's a lot there.
[50:41] And it really helps them to start think outside themselves because we're, we're all going to die.
[50:47] I mean it's a given, but just start think,
[50:50] you know, and legacy is a fine word, but it can just mean get your name on a building or it can mean,
[50:56] you know, what have you really left behind with your children?
[50:59] I think sometimes it's a hard place to go because we have regrets.
[51:04] But it's like, okay, I have regrets, you know, like with my children. I mean that's a regret.
[51:08] So it's like this is a way to lead them. Well,
[51:11] to leave a legacy that's beyond just what I was like when they were little kids.
[51:16] To show how much I truly do care about them and have thoughts about what they are going to receive from me. Because in a lot of ways that's our last thing they're going to receive from us.
[51:28] Do we want it to be hire an attorney and go to court or do we want it to be.
[51:33] Here's some wisdom. I like legacy letters. I like there's I love you letters. There's letters that people write. Sometimes we'll do it now,
[51:41] sometimes we'll go ahead and have family meetings and go through it all. And sometimes it's like it's not going to come out until then because they, they don't want to do that.
[51:48] And that's fine.
[51:49] You know, it's just,
[51:51] let's do something that can really help.
[51:54] And I think it's freeing for the person.
[51:56] There's a Great book called Living Backwards.
[51:59] So when we go there, I think it really helps us look at where we are today, you know, as a 50 year old, 60 year old, wherever we are and think, you know, it's limited time,
[52:08] I'm going to be a little more intentional about what my legacy will look like because we can change it now. We're fine.
[52:14] You know, we can do things that can make a difference, we can reach out, we can be intentional.
[52:20] And I think it really helps us narrow down what that would need to be to show our family,
[52:25] you know, overcome our weakness or deal with something we've regretted or mend the fence with somebody while we can.
[52:33] It'll really help us think because part of it too is what's your funeral going to look like? Or memorial service, what's that going to be?
[52:40] It's like, well here's what I want and it's like you haven't talked to your brother in law in 20 years.
[52:46] Why do you think they're going to come fix it now?
[52:51] So I think it really adds not a burden, but a path forward that is positive, that is helpful,
[52:59] that then when it does happen,
[53:01] it does turn out like we wanted.
[53:04] And that's not documents,
[53:06] that's not about the documents. The documents to me are the tool to help start the conversations, to help make it real.
[53:12] And then it's kind of the bow on top when you happen you have the documents there to help enforce and reinforce what you've done and said so that you're letting your family grieve.
[53:24] Instead of go to court,
[53:26] you can divide the assets, but it can also divide the family.
[53:30] You want to bring them together.
[53:32] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[53:33] I have to say that's the one thing that has surprised me the most in being a financial planner is how,
[53:42] how many families don't speak to each other and or get torn apart during a state that I think most people think it won't happen and it happens way more often than I ever expect.
[54:01] But it's also maybe because our family is still as close, but how many families really aren't close?
[54:09] And there's a lot of hard,
[54:11] big emotions that are there,
[54:15] so.
[54:16] Paul Stafford: And people are complicated. Yeah, I mean I think that's the greatest blessing to be married to a counselor is. I just, it's. There's not simple solutions. I mean we've got all the self help books, they're great.
[54:24] But it's like the end of the day, there's 12 reasons why that relationship broke down and. But it's amazing again, I think when we get older, we get a little more insightful.
[54:36] So it's easier to mend fences,
[54:39] to fix relationships than it was maybe when we were in our 20s and 30s and you know, sudden be tall, bulletproof.
[54:46] So I think sometimes we get a little more honest.
[54:49] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[54:50] Paul Stafford: So those are great conversations, I think to happen and it just, this is kind of the channeling to do it and make it real.
[54:59] Tara Bansal: Any last words of wisdom for today?
[55:06] Paul Stafford: Looked at one of the flyers I did quite a while ago. It was like two days matter most today and the day we're gone.
[55:13] And there's so much we can do today to make that next day.
[55:18] I mean, it will be grief, it'll be horrible, it'll be tough,
[55:22] but there will be more beauty to it because of it.
[55:25] And I think too we can help people face death better knowing.
[55:31] I mean, I know my brother in law, when he died,
[55:35] I'm gonna tear up.
[55:36] I wasn't there, unfortunately.
[55:39] But he was released. They unplugged him, but he hung on for another day or two and they literally released him and he took a deep breath and died.
[55:49] He needed that.
[55:51] I mean,
[55:52] Dr. Whatever could come in and say whatever, but I think most doctors are like, why do people die? Sometimes we don't know why, why did they hang on? Why did they die?
[55:58] We don't know.
[55:59] But it was to me so beautiful that freed him to take his last breath.
[56:06] And I think a lot of times too,
[56:08] as we see death, as we get older,
[56:10] that we can realize we can do something about this.
[56:14] We really can.
[56:16] To where we can be free to go.
[56:19] And knowing we've done what we could,
[56:23] we made a difference.
[56:26] Tara Bansal: That's beautiful. Thank you, Paul.
[56:28] Paul Stafford: Perfect.
[56:29] Tara Bansal: I really appreciate you being here.
[56:31] Paul Stafford: Thank you too. Appreciate it. Great conversation.
[56:37] Tara Bansal: Well, that's it for today. Thanks everyone.
[56:40] Paul Stafford: Certainly. Thank you. Take care of.
[56:42] Tara Bansal: Today's connection challenge is to have a meaningful conversation with someone you love about what would happen if something happened to you or to them.
[56:52] This conversation could be with your spouse, a parent, or your adult child.
[56:58] This is not just about the legal documents,
[57:01] but the human side of it.
[57:02] Here's a few questions to help get you started.
[57:06] What would you want if you suddenly passed away or are incapacitated?
[57:13] What do you care about?
[57:14] What worries you?
[57:17] Who would you trust to help make decisions and what conversations still need to happen.
[57:23] Yes, these discussions can feel uncomfortable,
[57:27] but they are also an act of love,
[57:29] an act of care for the people that we leave behind.
[57:34] You do not need to solve everything in one conversation.
[57:37] The important thing is just to start before we wrap up today, Paul Stafford and I wanted to invite you to continue this conversation with us in a free webinar this June called after turning 18 and the solo what Most Families Don't Think About Until It Suddenly Matters One of the things that surprised me most in talking with Paul is how much changes legally once your child turns 18.
[58:07] And most of us don't think about it and we don't do anything about it as parents.
[58:13] After your child turns 18,
[58:15] we can no longer automatically access medical information or speak with doctors or schools or make decisions in an emergency situation.
[58:25] And this doesn't only apply to brand new 18 year olds. If your adult child is in their 20s or older and living independently,
[58:34] these gaps may still exist because most families never revisit what changed at 18.
[58:41] During this conversation, Paul and I will talk about what actually changes legally, financially, and digitally after 18 the simple documents that can create real protection,
[58:55] why the digital side matters just as much as the paperwork,
[58:59] and how to have these conversations with your adult children without it feeling overwhelming or too heavy.
[59:06] We'll also walk you through one simple but important exercise you can complete right on your phone during the webinar.
[59:14] The webinar is Tuesday,
[59:16] June 16th at noon Eastern, and we would truly love to have you there.
[59:22] If you can't attend live,
[59:24] the webinar will be available for replay for a week afterwards.
[59:29] If you would like to attend, you can send me an email or you can find the registration link in the show Notes.
[59:36] Thanks so much.
[59:38] Thanks for listening to Messy Middle Essence.
[59:41] If you enjoyed today's episode,
[59:43] it would mean so much to us if you subscribed, shared it with a friend, or leave a quick review.
[59:50] It really helps more people find us and we're so grateful that you're here
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Paul Stafford is Co-Founder of Flying Solo and a professional estate planner with over 20 years of experience helping families prepare for life’s toughest transitions. He specializes in widow preparedness, family legacy planning, business succession, and estate strategies that work beyond the documents. Through practical stories, real-world experience, and a people-first approach, Paul helps families reduce confusion, strengthen relationships, and prepare the next generation for leadership. He speaks nationally to families, advisors, nonprofits, and agricultural organizations on estate planning, legacy, and family leadership.
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Webinar hosted by Tara Bansal and Paul Stafford: After Turning 18 and the Solo JourneyWhat most families don’t think about — until it suddenly matters
Tuesday, June 16th | Noon Eastern |
Click here to registerAfter registering,you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the call.
Books
How People Change by Timothy S. Lane and Paul David Tripp
Paul referenced this book when discussing why it's so difficult to motivate others to change. One of the book's central ideas is that meaningful change begins with ourselves, not with trying to fix other people.How People Change (Publisher Page)
Relationships: A Mess Worth Making by Timothy S. Lane and Paul David Tripp
One of Paul's favorite titles. The book explores the reality that relationships are often messy, complicated, and challenging—and still worth investing in.Relationships: A Mess Worth Making
The Missing Billionaires: A Guide to Better Financial Decisions by Victor Haghani and James White
Paul referenced this book while discussing why so many family fortunes disappear over generations despite excellent advisors, attorneys, and planning. The book explores how wealth is often lost through poor decisions rather than poor opportunities.Living Life Backward by David Gibson and Lee Cheole-min
Paul mentioned this book when talking about legacy and intentional living. The premise is simple but powerful: consider the end of life and work backward to determine what truly matters today.Estate Planning Documents Paul Recommends for Every Adult
Paul emphasized that these are not just for retirees or wealthy families. He believes every adult—especially those over 18—should consider having:
Healthcare Power of Attorney
Financial Power of Attorney
HIPAA Authorization
A Will
A Revocable Living Trust (when appropriate)
As Paul put it:
"A trust is instructions to your survivors. A will is instructions to the judge."
Resources for Families with Children Over 18
FERPA Release Form
Once a child turns 18, colleges generally cannot discuss academic, billing, or disciplinary matters with parents without permission. Paul recommends that families understand and complete the appropriate FERPA authorization if desired.Apple Legacy Contact
One of Paul's favorite practical suggestions. Apple allows you to designate trusted individuals who can access your account after your death, helping loved ones retrieve photos, messages, and important information.Apple Legacy Contact Information
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Today's connection challenge is to have a meaningful conversation with someone you love about what should happen if something happened to you or to them.
This conversation could be with your spouse, a parent, or your adult child.
This is not just about the legal documents, but the human side of it.
Here's a few questions to help get you started.
What would you want if you suddenly passed away or are incapacitated?
What do you care about?
What worries you?
Who would you trust to help make decisions and what conversations still need to happen.
Yes, these discussions can feel uncomfortable, but they are also an act of love, an act of care for the people that we leave behind.
You do not need to solve everything in one conversation. Just begin the conversation.