31. Grief Episodes Debrief
“You try to get them not to be sad or to not feel what they’re feeling. And ...you try to cheer them up or take their mind off of it instead of having them process or work through those feelings. I think that’s a really important thing...to allow them to be unhappy and to be sad.”
In today’s episode, Tara and Tina take time to consider and contemplate the vast amount of both practical information and words of wisdom from the two previous episodes on grief and loss. We hope you were able to listen to our last 2 episodes: “Learning and Living Through Grief” with Brett Danko and “When Their World Stops From Grief” with Anne-Marie Lockmyer. We recommend that you listen to them before listening to this one.
Today’s episode highlights what we learned and experienced through these interviews with Brett and Anne-Marie. We hope our discussion helps bring more clarity and positive energy to this emotional and difficult - but unavoidable and important topic. We encourage you to listen and hope you will contact us with any feedback and the impact these episodes had on you and your middlescence journey.
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[00:22] Tara Bansal: Hi, this is Tara Conti Bansal, and I want to welcome you to season two of. Of our podcast, Messy Middlescence. My sister Christina Conti Donovan and I are in the thick of midlife and trying to help ourselves and others to learn about and hopefully thrive in this unique phase of life.
[00:42] Like adolescence, Middlescence is a time of tremendous change, touching almost every aspects of our lives. There are the physical and hormonal changes, but also many of the rhythms, relationships, and frameworks that have dominated our lives for decades all start to shift in various ways.
[01:03] Tina and I are figuring this out as we go, and we hope you will join us as we dive into and discuss topics and ideas that will help all of us grow and understand this special midlife phase and how to live it better, more meaningfully and joyfully, one day at a time.
[01:22] Tara Bansal: Hello. Hello, this is Tara Conti Bansal, and I'm here with my sister, Christina Conti Donovan. Today we're just going to talk about a debrief on grief and the past two episodes that went live with Ann Marie and Brett Denko.
[01:43] Tina, what is the first thing that kind of stood out to you on either one?
[01:48] Christina Donovan: Well, I think that both of them have just so much information in them. Anne- Marie's is definitely just a very practical episode. I learned so much listening to her, and at the very least, I think it gave me confidence on the things to do and not do when someone is grieving.
[02:12] And then Brett's emotionally was just so packed full of emotions and information.
[02:21] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[02:23] Christina Donovan: I guess what I'm trying to say is they're too heavy episodes and they're back to back. And if you listen to them back to back, I think there's a lot to unpack and kind of take away from.
[02:35] Tara Bansal: I mean, in both of those episodes, you.
[02:39] I think the listeners can hear Tina and I both get teary and emotional.
[02:47] And what stood out was I felt like Tina and I were more emotional than both Ann Marie and Brett. I don't know what that says, if just they're used to it or.
[03:03] But yeah, and I. I always call myself out like I am a crier and I easily get upset. I would love to know what that means about me, if I have unprocessed issues and grief myself, but.
[03:21] Or I'm just a big feeler. That's what I like to say. But yeah, I mean, Ann Marie's, her book and the episode, just the practicality of it for me was so helpful.
[03:36] Yeah, I mean, I will, I think, often go back and recommend her book to many people, and.
[03:47] Christina Donovan: Yeah, we already have here.
[03:50] And I think the thing that stood out for me personally with Anne Marie was the idea that any type of loss involves grief and recovery. And I think that's a really important point.
[04:11] Even though maybe, you know that at a very, like, intellectual level, the way she talked about that, that was one of the things that really brought me to tears. Like, you think of all the losses that you have, and you kind of just.
[04:27] I got to pick myself up and keep moving, and, you know, I don't want to feel sad. So you kind of, like, push all this stuff down. I think that's a really common thing that we do in our society.
[04:39] And to recognize that life is full of loss, as she says over and over, and that you need the time to mourn those losses and recover from them, I think made her episode really.
[04:57] I think everyone should listen to it. I don't know. It's.
[05:00] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I do, too. I mean, hearing you say that, I love the reminder, because I think all too often you feel like this shouldn't be that big a deal, and you try to diminish it, or you do plow through or you stuff down those emotions.
[05:18] And that, I think, is what many of us do all too often. And. And.
[05:26] And that could get harder and harder. Like, it just keeps building and building.
[05:31] And the other, for me is, like, one loss can bring up other losses, especially if they're not processed or, you know, dealt with, I think. And I think that's very common because we.
[05:50] I don't know, we don't know how to grief, and we feel like we just have to keep moving because that's what we're told to do or we think we have to do.
[06:02] Christina Donovan: Yeah. The other important point that really stood out to me with Anne Marie's was this idea, and I think this with our children, and that's specifically what she was talking about, I think, at the time.
[06:14] But that you try to get them not to be sad or to not feel what they're feeling. And I know that we have done that here, you know, try to cheer them up or take their mind off of it instead of having them process or work through those feelings.
[06:33] And I think that's a really important thing as a parent, to allow your family members. It sometimes is not your children. It could be your elderly parents or a sibling, you know, allow them to be unhappy and to be sad.
[06:52] And it's not easy because it's not. It's hard to be around someone who is sad or is Unhappy, especially if you love them.
[07:01] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And I. I agree. I think that's a great reminder that we all do try to make it better and diminish it or say things that aren't helpful instead of helping them to feel it and process it.
[07:21] Brett. Like, I knew the story of his dad's unexpected death, and for me, I'm getting teary now, but just the fact that he's experienced both in such almost extreme situations.
[07:43] His dad's death was, you know, a car accident, and he was gone. Dawn's how, you know, long and how much she suffered and how hard that.
[07:56] Christina Donovan: Is to watch as.
[07:59] Yeah, it's. And his reflections on kind of the difference in dealing with the two was super interesting as well.
[08:10] They both have kind of their.
[08:12] Tara Bansal: Yeah. Who it's harder for and who. Yeah.
[08:16] Christina Donovan: But one of the things, you know, that really struck me, and it comes back to that kind of the dual situations that he had with his father and then with dawn, you know, to his constant reminder throughout the episode to tell the people that you love, you love them, to spend time with the people you love, and to show kindness to the people you love.
[08:47] It works for both of those. You know, in terms of both, somebody who passes away quickly, but even for somebody who maybe is ongoing in.
[09:00] Tara Bansal: An.
[09:01] Christina Donovan: Illness or a chronic problem, like, your life changes when something like that happens. And I think if there is a pattern or a history of doing and saying these things before that, um, I.
[09:20] Not only does it, I think, make it easier once there's a diagnosis or your circumstances have drastically changed, it also, though, is. I'm not sure how to say this, but it's making sure that those things have been said without necessarily having that particular change happen.
[09:42] Like, it's just. It's become part of your life, and it's.
[09:47] It's always there. I'm not sure I phrased that well, but.
[09:50] Tara Bansal: No, I think you did. Why do you think we have a hard time doing that?
[09:56] Christina Donovan: Well, I do think some of it, you know, it kind of goes back to. I've heard this before, that the people that you love the most, you're the most comfortable hurting because there's no, you know, that they're going to love you.
[10:13] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[10:13] Christina Donovan: Not always, but it's kind of how siblings treat each other because they know they can. You know what I mean? And when you're unhappy or frustrated or whatever, I think it's easier to display those emotions or take those emotions out instead of doing the things that show our love or our care.
[10:34] You know what I Mean, I think it's easier to tap into negativity and instead of the opposite. I don't know. Yeah, I could be wrong on that.
[10:45] Tara Bansal: No, I think.
[10:47] And I think it's also how you're brought up and what is almost considered normal. Like, I know in our family, we say, I love you a lot. And I know some families, they don't do that, like, for.
[11:04] You know. And I've heard people say, well, if you just say it, it doesn't. It almost loses its meaning.
[11:11] And so I do think it's more than just words. It's showing up and expressing through actions and other things.
[11:23] But I think some families are more expressive than others. And I don't know, some people, I.
[11:32] Christina Donovan: Even think within families are more expressive.
[11:34] Tara Bansal: Oh, yeah.
[11:35] Christina Donovan: Than others. I know of my three, I have one who easily communicates their emotions and feelings, and then I have two that it's a little harder for.
[11:50] Tara Bansal: Yeah. So. But I. And observing that, do you feel like.
[11:57] I feel like the one who is expressive and Brett said this, like, some people, it. They're not comfortable, but part of. And maybe this is me, then it makes me feel more open to be more expressive, too.
[12:13] But that just may be my personality. I don't know. You know, Like, I just. If you've seen, like, how do you think they react? Like, is it helpful or it just makes them almost more uncomfortable?
[12:26] Christina Donovan: Well, I guess the two who are less likely to be expressive in my family, once you initiate, they are, but they will never be the one that initiates it. Right.
[12:40] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like, sometimes I think it's helpful to have one or, you know, those two is always. Yeah, they'll open it up or help initiate. So. Yeah.
[12:51] And I think that's what Brett was saying is don't be afraid to do that.
[12:56] Christina Donovan: Right. Even if, you know, it makes the other person uncomfortable. Yeah, No, I think that's. That is in a. Really.
[13:04] That stood out to me as well in his.
[13:08] In his talking about it.
[13:11] Tara Bansal: The other something that I thought was helpful. And it, like, Brett is still, like, so in the beginning phases, you know, And I think of Anne Marie saying, like, after the first year, it was almost worse and.
[13:29] And feeling, I don't know, sad for Brett that he still has that ahead of him.
[13:39] Christina Donovan: Yeah, he still has, but it was.
[13:42] Tara Bansal: Also nice to see someone who has made it through and, you know, gives that hope of, like, yeah, this is part of life. I think that's what is really.
[13:57] I don't know. We don't want it, and yet we're all going to experience it.
[14:05] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[14:05] Tara Bansal: And need to be able to learn to deal with it.
[14:09] So I guess what I'm saying is, like, Anne Marie has moved through it, and Brett is still at the very beginning part of it, and everybody's journey's different, but I like that we got to see someone who was in it, like, you know, and he was so open and vulnerable and even sharing specific things.
[14:35] And Anne Marie, you know, has.
[14:38] Was decades ago, and she's now, you know, embracing life, and not that she doesn't miss him and things like that, but recognizing that too. Yeah.
[14:49] Christina Donovan: And I think this was one of Anne Marie's point, but I think you see it.
[14:55] It's one of those things that seems basic when she said it, but now that she said it, like, I see it more and more that. I mean, everybody.
[15:03] Everybody's grief journey is unique. You know, you can't predict how long someone's gonna go through it or how. You know what I mean? Like, how long it will take or how long it will take and how they will be that.
[15:18] You know, everybody is.
[15:20] Goes through it differently, and each person's is unique.
[15:25] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And I think knowing that ahead and trying to keep remembering that.
[15:31] Yeah.
[15:33] I also think of how so many couples break up after a death of a child, and I think a lot of times it's because people grieve differently, and that just gets really hard.
[15:50] Christina Donovan: She did talk about that, and I can totally understand that as well, because.
[15:58] Tara Bansal: You expect different people, need different things. And the frustration of feeling like either.
[16:05] Christina Donovan: Your needs aren't being met or not understanding somebody else's needs. Yeah.
[16:11] Tara Bansal: So just recognizing that everybody's different and their journey's gonna be different upfront around the expectations, but. Yeah. Anything else that you feel like. Yeah.
[16:31] Christina Donovan: I mean, they were both episodes, even though they're dealing with grief and loss, I guess I just. I didn't feel like they were dark or they're heavy, but not.
[16:46] I think both of them had sort of a positive energy to them.
[16:52] And I think the subject matter.
[16:54] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[16:55] I think part of that is a credit to who they are. Like, they both still, like, felt somewhat hopeful to me. Yeah. Like, it didn't feel too depressing or overwhelming for me, even though I did get teary and emotional.
[17:18] And part of me wonders, like, if for Brett, it's because I don't know exactly where he is, but he knew, you know, like, you get to start processing the grief when you know it's coming because, you know, for so Long they had just been dealing with that.
[17:37] And.
[17:39] Yeah, I don't know.
[17:42] I think it's more just his personality, but I'm not sure I would have been able to do what Brett did, you know, and so even to be able to talk about it at this point.
[17:54] Christina Donovan: Yes. I was so impressed that he was able to. To have the discussion he had.
[18:02] I'm not so sure I could have done that. I know. I think you and I were way more emotional and teary than he was.
[18:11] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[18:13] Christina Donovan: And same with Anne Marie.
[18:15] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[18:18] But I mean, I just. Like you said, I'm so glad we did them, and I learned so much, and I felt like it was a very worthwhile learning. I think I'll go back during different times, too, to have some reminders for myself and those around me.
[18:42] Christina Donovan: Although, again, we highly recommend Annemarie's book either for yourself or if you know someone who is trying to support someone in who is grieving.
[18:56] It's a great, great resource and toolkit.
[19:02] Tara Bansal: And she did a great job of, like, telling us what we should and shouldn't do and the practicality. I know we keep saying that, but I can't say it enough. And Brett's overarching message, which we all can use the reminder, is just be kind and love the people.
[19:21] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[19:21] Tara Bansal: Around you. Yeah. Any comments, Tina, on, like, learning to be more selfish in adolescence? Like how Brett was saying, do you feel like you.
[19:37] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I understand what he's saying. I think, especially for people that, you know, have children, it's hard to think about yourself, like, while you're still caregiving, you know, and actually not just children, I guess, like, if you're taking care of older parents or something like that, I suppose it's similar.
[19:57] I guess I just kind of assume that that will happen naturally. That, you know, as it becomes just you sort of what the word is age into, you know, less responsibilities, whether it's with work or, you know, childcare or elder care, that, you know, as you have more time, you will be more selfish.
[20:20] You know, it's just a natural occurrence.
[20:24] Tara Bansal: Hmm. Yeah, I'm not so sure that's true. You know, I never really thought about it like that, but I do think being a caretaker can overwhelm, you know, people, especially during different times of their lives.
[20:40] And I don't know, I. I think that's interesting that it happens naturally as you age.
[20:46] Christina Donovan: Well, I guess in terms of that, I'm talking about in terms of time and how you spend your time.
[20:52] But he also spent quite a bit of time Talking about the whole emotional bucket and being selfish in regards to who fills your bucket and who you spend your time with.
[21:06] Yeah. And that I do think.
[21:12] I think it's hard to do.
[21:15] He seemed very casual about it. But I mean, somebody that no longer fills your emotional bucket, it's hard to cut people out, you know? Yeah.
[21:28] Tara Bansal: I agree. I mean, especially if it was a relationship. Yeah. Yeah.
[21:35] Christina Donovan: But at the same time, I mean, I do like his. You know, he kept saying, figure out who you want to spend time with and spend time with them. And I mean, I do think that's important that, you know, you are giving the people you want to be around, you know, the time that you have.
[21:53] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[21:54] Christina Donovan: But, yeah, so I guess being selfish, I guess you could take it multiple ways. Yeah.
[22:01] Tara Bansal: And I don't know, just time. But yeah, I mean, I've. I've read that as people age, they.
[22:13] They call it kind of coal, you know, like their friends to be more. Who does fill their bucket.
[22:23] And yeah, it goes to, like. I don't know if it is the recognizing you only have so much time or just wisdom of like, this doesn't work for me. And so making those choices.
[22:44] But yeah, I think many people, as they age, their group of who they care about shrinks. And you hope it's the people they really care about, you know, and enjoy and make that happen.
[23:01] I mean, I think it was great advice to me, like, notice who feels good and you enjoy being with and who depletes you and, you know, causes drama. Yeah. Doesn't feel good.
[23:17] And try to make those choices. I think, as you said, I.
[23:24] For a few relationships that I've tried to, like, it's hard how to extract yourself without it feeling hurtful and hurtful or. Yeah, I would love any advice on that, but I admit that has been a struggle for me in my past.
[23:44] And I think it's one of those, like, is it better to just be direct or is it like, you just don't reply, you don't initiate. Yeah.
[23:53] Christina Donovan: You eventually ghost them. Yeah.
[23:57] Tara Bansal: Which also doesn't feel good to me and is not my personality.
[24:02] Christina Donovan: No.
[24:03] Tara Bansal: So much. Good. Good advice. It's like things we know we should do and why don't we do it is one of my questions. I.
[24:14] I'm often asking, you know, like, what gets in the way and how can we, you know, remove those things that are getting in the way to spending quality time with the people we care about and telling them we love them.
[24:30] Christina Donovan: Yeah. And I mean, it's a little different, but. And Providing support to the people we love. I mean, you know, we talked about, I think, in our first episode, how a lot of times you don't reach out to people because you are afraid to say the wrong thing or you're not sure what to say or.
[24:52] And I think, you know, listening to Brett and listening to Ann Marie, they kind of. They guide you and you learn from listening to them on. Hopefully it gives you more confidence that when you're in that situation, you do reach out because you're not as scared of making a mistake or you lack the confidence that you're gonna say or do the right thing.
[25:16] Tara Bansal: You know, and the importance of just being there and offering. Yeah. And to keep offering, I think, is the other, like, not. Yeah.
[25:29] Christina Donovan: That was something they both.
[25:31] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[25:32] Christina Donovan: Really is held into. Yeah.
[25:36] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And the importance of that. And I think that is a good reminder, like, all of our lives keep moving, but theirs so drastically.
[25:46] And to acknowledge that and keep remembering that. Yeah. Anything else, Tina?
[25:55] Christina Donovan: No, just that, you know, I think this. I always do that. No, but that this theme of grief and loss is going to continue throughout the season. Like, we have more episodes coming up on this topic, but we have others as well, so.
[26:14] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And part of the reason is we feel like it is important. It's something we wanted to learn about and it's part of life where we know more and more. We are going to be encountering that for ourselves and those around us as we age.
[26:34] Yeah.
[26:34] Christina Donovan: In our families and our friends and our community. Yeah.
[26:39] Tara Bansal: Well, thank you for listening and as always, we would love any feedback or comments and let us know. Have a great day.
[26:49] Today's recommendation is for the book the Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times by Catherine May.
[26:58] This book was recommended to me by my good friend Anne.
[27:02] Christina Donovan: She.
[27:03] Tara Bansal: Her family has a book club. How cool is that? And this was her family's book club selection. It's February and I think of this as the heart of winter. Maybe it would have been better to read this book earlier in the season, but I still think it's a worthwhile read.
[27:23] It talks about how winter and wintering, which is a time of, like, sadness or needing to rest, is a natural and normal part of life and for us to prepare for it if possible.
[27:46] And really around accepting it, Catherine May pulled lessons from literature and the natural world, mythology and many different cultures that were really interesting.
[28:00] But it still talks about the lessons and the growth that happens during these times of retreat and hibernation.
[28:14] And just it. It was well written and as I said, I hope you give it a try.
[28:22] Christina Donovan: For show notes and other information about our podcast, please Visit our website, messymiddlesence.com if you enjoyed listening, please help spread the word about our podcast by sending a link to a family member or friend.
[28:37] And don't forget to leave a positive rating or review for us. As always, we hope you will return for more.
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