45. A Gathering Ritual
“….it shouldn’t be about how beautiful everything is. It’s about the beautiful time you have together.”
Earlier this fall, Tina accidentally found herself following Samin Nosrat’s entire media tour. Nosrat — the author of the bestselling cookbook and Netflix series Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat — has a new cookbook out called Good Things, and by pure coincidence Tina kept stumbling onto interviews, articles, and podcasts about her. What stayed with her wasn’t the recipes. It was the message underneath them. In each interview and article, Nosrat tells the same story with the same message. She describes how after years of work she finally achieved everything she had ever dreamed of with Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat — and yet she was completely miserable. A regularly scheduled dinner party literally saved her life. She learned that gathering the people you care about is essential to a meaningful life. And the focus of her new book is all about bringing people together. Gathering is what is important and needed in our lives — it is not the food, not the table, nor all the little details we can get hung up on. Her eloquent and persuasive advocacy for connecting through regular gatherings is downright compelling.
Around the same time, Tara came across an article in The Atlantic titled “Americans Need to Party More,” which stated that “only 4% of Americans attended or hosted a social event on an average weekend or holiday in 2023.” According to the article, this is a 35% decrease since 2004. Both Tina and Tara were shocked by this statistic.
And here’s where the tension comes in. We both love the idea of a gathering ritual — something steady, comforting, simple, and woven into the rhythm of our lives. It sounds beautiful and grounding. But when we think about our own schedules, energy levels, families, and the very real anxieties we each have around hosting, it suddenly feels incredibly challenging. We want this… and yet we struggle to make it happen. That tension is at the heart of this episode.
It is easy to believe Samin Nosrat’s claim that a regular or ritual gathering can be profoundly life-changing. That is not a hard sell. But the stark reality is that people seem to be socializing less. If that 4% figure is true — why do people not entertain more? What keeps us from opening our homes and inviting those we have connections with (or want to connect with) to gather? Tina and Tara turn those questions on themselves and discuss their own patterns around hosting – what we enjoy, what stresses us out and what gets in the way. They discuss the pressure to “perform” and the beautiful possibility of gathering friends and family without perfection.
Some of the topics discussed today include:
• how frequently we really entertain friends and family
• the parts of hosting we love — and the parts we dread
• the sources of anxiety around opening our homes
• the time, energy, and logistical constraints that make it hard
• the pressure of social media and comparison
• why ritualized gatherings used to be more common
• the truth behind “perfect is the enemy of good”
• and simple, imperfect ways to gather that aren’t dinner parties
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[00:22] Christina Donovan: Welcome to Messy Middlescence.
[00:24] This is a podcast where we talk honestly about the changes, change, challenges, connections and gifts that come with midlife.
[00:32] Nothing too polished, just real conversations that remind us we're not alone.
[00:37] So let's dive in.
[00:40] Christina Donovan: This is Christina Or Tina Conti Donovan and I'm here with my sister Tara Conti Bansal.
[00:47] So we're going to start today with a question for you.
[00:50] When was the last time you hosted people in your home?
[00:54] Most of us host family or friends for special occasions such as birthdays, holidays,
[01:00] graduations, etc.
[01:02] So here's a follow up question.
[01:04] When was the last time you hosted friends or family in your home just to connect with them through either a dinner party, drinks or perhaps even a game night?
[01:14] Tara came across a figure that said only 4% of adults regularly entertain in their home.
[01:20] We were shocked by that figure.
[01:23] Similarly, I found myself earlier this fall following Sam and Nosrat's media tour.
[01:29] Totally by accident, I might add.
[01:32] Sam and Nosrat, for those of you who don't know, is the author of Salt, Fat, Acid Heat, a best selling cookbook and Netflix series which took the world by storm about, I don't know, maybe eight to 10 years ago.
[01:46] She has a new cookbook out called Good Times and I heard her interviewed on several different outlets and also read several different interviews on her.
[01:56] And her new cookbook is very different from her first and it's inspired by a need to connect with people and to get people to connect.
[02:07] She talks about how after years and years of work,
[02:10] she finally achieved everything she had ever dreamed of with her first cookbook and yet she was completely miserable.
[02:18] It was a regularly scheduled,
[02:21] almost a ritual dinner party that literally saved her life.
[02:25] And the focus of her new book and every interview she gave was about the importance of bringing people together and how that not the food, not the physical space is what is important and needed in our lives.
[02:39] Her preaching about this, and it literally sounds like preaching, is that this need for connecting through gathering together regularly,
[02:49] it was super convincing and very eloquent and it got us thinking, if that 4% figure we mentioned earlier is true,
[02:59] why do we not entertain more?
[03:01] What keeps us from opening our homes and inviting those we have connections with or want to connect with to gather.
[03:08] We touched a little bit about this in our Thanksgiving episode last season,
[03:14] but we thought we would dive a little deeper today and talk about this idea of gathering and the ritual of gathering together and why we don't do it more.
[03:30] So I guess Tari, the first thing I'm going to Ask you is how often would you say you and Nimit host dinners or parties at people in your home that's not related to a special occasion?
[03:42] Yeah, and that's.
[03:44] Tara Bansal: I mean, when I first thought about it, our family gets together generally for birthdays, I would say, because we have.
[03:52] Christina Donovan: A lot of them.
[03:55] Tara Bansal: And for holidays. So that's like the most normal and regular.
[04:01] It's.
[04:02] It is just family.
[04:03] And that has its own cadence, I would say.
[04:08] But then I was trying to think of the last time we had hosted, and there's the six of us or eight of us from high school.
[04:21] That's all couples that we get together. I would say we try for once a quarter.
[04:26] And because we are midway between Northern Jersey and Philly,
[04:33] that we have come. They've come to Princeton more often than anywhere else.
[04:38] And so that is generally the only other time we have hosted, I would say.
[04:50] There's been special occasions, like when Nimit left his job that he'd been at for a long time. We did a party for that,
[04:58] but that was a special occasion. So, like,
[05:01] the only one I can come up with is fairly regularly and, like I said, would say it's almost like a quarterly. Thing is, we have these six,
[05:11] you know, or eight people over,
[05:14] and we sometimes do it at a restaurant, but I like doing it at a house just because I think it's easier with that size that you're able to talk to more people than just when you're at a restaurant.
[05:27] You can only talk to kind of the two people next to you.
[05:31] Six is easier to be in one conversation, but with eight, it's definitely two conversations.
[05:38] Christina Donovan: And so you also have the issue of noise in restaurants.
[05:41] Tara Bansal: Yes.
[05:42] Christina Donovan: Which a lot of times, I mean, that's why you're. There is to converse, but it can be hard to hear.
[05:49] Tara Bansal: Yeah, that is true.
[05:50] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[05:51] Tara Bansal: How about you and Matt?
[05:54] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I mean, I think we're pretty similar.
[05:58] We love hosting family for birthdays and holidays,
[06:03] but with friends.
[06:04] Like, I was thinking about it, I would say maybe it's two to three times a year at most.
[06:11] Yeah.
[06:12] Tara Bansal: I thought it was more than that for you, honestly.
[06:15] Christina Donovan: And it made me think, too. I mean,
[06:20] we used to host a lot more just our neighborhood in the summers because we have these porches and there would be. We call them porch parties, but they're really simple in the sense that you don't have to really open your home up.
[06:33] I mean, people have to use the restroom and people do go in and out, but everything is outside,
[06:38] which. And it's in A very confined space, like on your porch.
[06:43] And it's hard to know.
[06:47] Tara Bansal: Those.
[06:47] Christina Donovan: I mean, they still happen occasionally, but they're not happening with any frequency anymore. And it's hard to know why. That's what I started thinking about.
[06:59] Tara Bansal: Was it before COVID That it was.
[07:01] Christina Donovan: More Covid, which makes you wonder.
[07:04] But it's also,
[07:05] you know, it was also an easy way for people to gather, like, on a Friday or a Saturday night with kids. And all of our kids are older now, so it's.
[07:15] And both of those things happened, like, at my age, most of us, our kids were in high school or in early years of college during COVID so it's hard to know, like.
[07:26] Or maybe it's just a combination of both.
[07:30] But, yeah,
[07:32] I wish we entertained more.
[07:34] Yeah, I guess. Why don't we? On a scale of 1 to 10, what would you say your comfort level is towards hosting?
[07:41] Um.
[07:44] Tara Bansal: I. My first reaction is a six. Uh, what would you say yours is? Um, well, I guess I should have.
[07:52] Christina Donovan: Specified, like, 10 being the most anxious. Is that how you.
[07:56] Tara Bansal: Oh, no, I was thinking 10 being.
[07:58] Christina Donovan: Like, the most relaxed.
[07:59] Tara Bansal: Most relaxed and fun and looking forward to it. And one is like, I'd rather put a needle in my eye than have toast.
[08:08] Christina Donovan: And so you put yourself at a six? Yeah, I think I might be a seven. I don't know.
[08:14] Tara Bansal: Yeah, but if you're not allowed a seven, what do you say then?
[08:18] Christina Donovan: Probably a six. Yeah. Like, I'm on the other side of, like. I mean, I enjoy hosting, but, I mean, I do find things about it make me anxious.
[08:27] Tara Bansal: Me too. Like, I. And even that's part of. When I think of,
[08:35] like, our smaller group,
[08:38] I'm not as anxious.
[08:42] And yet even, like, our family get togethers, I feel like I'm not as anxious, but I still do get worked up about it.
[08:51] And so that's kind of why the six.
[08:55] That may sound worse than it really is. But part of it's not allowing a seven.
[09:00] I don't know. I'm always happy after enduring,
[09:05] but it's like,
[09:07] beforehand.
[09:09] Christina Donovan: Yeah. The night before, like, you start. I mean, what are some of the things you worry about when you host?
[09:17] Tara Bansal: Well, one is just a little bit of cleaning our house and, like,
[09:25] making it presentable is. Is one thing.
[09:29] Planning the food and the menu and going shopping for that.
[09:38] Because I hate shopping.
[09:43] And it. And I think it's more.
[09:45] I just want it to go well.
[09:48] So that's the anxiety and the pressure of wanting it to be fun.
[09:55] And as I'm saying this Part of me is, like, if you do it more regularly and you have a system,
[10:02] maybe it wouldn't be quite as stressful.
[10:05] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[10:06] Tara Bansal: I mean, and I.
[10:08] I think I do this to myself, but when we have people over,
[10:12] I want to be with them.
[10:14] And so I often try to plan the food and the menu to, like, minimize the amount of time I'm in the kitchen.
[10:25] And. And so I think that may, you know, like, just wanting things to be hot or prepping ahead of time and trying to get it all done before people get there for me, I think can add some pressure or, you know, anxiety.
[10:44] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I think that is a big thing with the entertaining is.
[10:50] Is the food and you and your partner as hosts,
[10:57] you know, you want to be able to. That's the whole reason you have people over is to be with them. And if you spend the whole time in the kitchen or working to get the food ready, it kind of detracts from the experience.
[11:11] But it is hard to come up with menus that you can mostly make ahead of time. And that's where, I mean, I do think takeout is always an option.
[11:23] Tara Bansal: Like, I mean, and.
[11:26] Christina Donovan: I have found when we get together, I mean, I wouldn't say we have had people for dinner. I don't mean to say we never do dinner parties, but we have found it's really just so simple to just tell people it's going to be drinks and heavy hors d'.
[11:41] Oeuvres. You know what I mean? And those you can mostly always do ahead of time. And most people seem fine with that. I don't know.
[11:49] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I know our family is fine with that. I mean, that's, like, part of our Christmas tradition.
[11:56] And. And I do feel like often when people put hors d' oeuvres out, like, I eat so many of them that.
[12:01] Christina Donovan: Then I don't necessarily enjoy dinner. Yeah, right.
[12:06] Tara Bansal: So what about you? Like, what stresses you out for having people over?
[12:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I mean, I think worrying that the food is good enough and that we have enough food. I mean, I've never really perfected how much food is enough.
[12:27] And when we did my oldest, their graduation party, we ran out of food. And I kind of think that kind of scarred me for life because,
[12:38] I mean, I shouldn't say that we had food, but we ran out of, like, our main. Like, the main meal. Like, we had lots of snacks and desserts and things like that, but we.
[12:50] We had a lot of the food catered, and we had not ordered enough, and that kind of scarred me.
[12:56] So, yeah, I feel like now I definitely are on the side of trying to have more than less, which has its own issues too.
[13:05] Tara Bansal: But.
[13:05] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I think a lot of the same things. You know, cleaning, making sure your house is presentable. You know, you don't want to gross anybody out and.
[13:15] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[13:15] Christina Donovan: And I mean, the planning and shopping, it takes time.
[13:19] Tara Bansal: Yeah. I don't know, some people say like six to eight.
[13:24] That's not really a party.
[13:27] And this is part of my other struggle is I don't like too many people because then I feel like it gets overwhelming and there's the different conversations and that may just be one of my things.
[13:46] And then it's hard to who to invite and not invite.
[13:50] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[13:50] Tara Bansal: And that, to me is one of the harder things of this. Like having a standing get together or.
[13:59] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Like a ritual.
[14:01] Tara Bansal: Our table does not sit more than 10, you know,
[14:07] comfortably.
[14:08] So that's one of the other issues for.
[14:11] For me just thinking through this,
[14:13] but who to invite, who not to invite. Not wanting to hurt feelings and having too many people, for me, is something that would stress me out.
[14:25] Christina Donovan: Yeah. I'm surprised that people would say six to eight isn't a party. I don't know. I feel like anything over two is a party. You know what I mean? Like.
[14:35] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I do too.
[14:36] It was the article in the Atlantic, and she just may have been very,
[14:41] you know,
[14:43] she likes large groups of people. Well, yeah, and that is not me.
[14:48] Christina Donovan: But I do think that there is a difference then I would say between a dinner party and a party. Like, a dinner party is even if you're just doing drinks and hors d'.
[14:58] Oeuvres. It's the idea that I don't think those can really get much bigger than like 10 or 12, like you said, just because of the table tables.
[15:06] Tara Bansal: Most people, I mean, you have.
[15:08] Christina Donovan: Yeah, like, I mean, I think,
[15:10] like, when you're talking like a party party, you know, it's most either going to be like a buffet or, you know, people are going to kind of graze,
[15:19] which I do think is a little different than. Than a dinner party.
[15:24] I agree.
[15:25] I mean, I know our parents, when we were growing up, they called it their gourmet group.
[15:32] And I don't know, I. It made a big impression on me.
[15:36] I don't know exactly how many years they did it, but they had a group. I don't know if it was six or eight,
[15:43] and I don't know exactly the frequency that they got together. I think it was once a month, but it might have been less.
[15:50] Tara Bansal: I think about that but it may not ended up being every month. But I agree.
[15:56] In the article in the Atlantic, it talks about how the prior generations did get together more often.
[16:05] And it made me think of our parents gourmet group, which did make a huge impression. And I always, I always. I was also thinking about like,
[16:15] our dad played softball and at the softball games, people would bring food or they would go to somebody's house afterwards.
[16:25] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[16:26] Tara Bansal: And that was also a pretty common get together that I remember.
[16:31] Christina Donovan: Me too. Yeah.
[16:34] Yeah. I mean, I find the idea of a ritualized meal with friends very appealing.
[16:45] It's kind of. We were talking about in earlier episodes how, you know, having like a walking group or a biking group that meets once a week or twice a week or whatever.
[16:59] You know, the importance of kind of the regularity and almost the casualness of it.
[17:09] Because when it's regular, when it's a.
[17:11] Everybody knows that it's this Monday or whatever.
[17:16] And you know that there are so many scheduled, it makes it less a big deal if you can't make it,
[17:21] you know. And I do think the familiarity perpetuates itself. Like because you're seeing people regularly, you're constantly planning, you know what I mean? Or talking about the next thing. And it.
[17:34] I don't know, I think there's a lot to be said for that.
[17:37] But it also involves, you know,
[17:40] like you said, finding the people that are willing to commit to that and that get along well enough. You know what I mean?
[17:49] And for couples,
[17:51] if that's what you're talking about, you know, the couples need.
[17:55] Tara Bansal: To get along, get along. And that can be talked about before.
[17:59] Christina Donovan: Too, can be tricky.
[18:01] Tara Bansal: Um,
[18:02] I mean, I.
[18:06] I think for this stage of my life,
[18:11] once a week would be way too much. But once a month to me sounds much more doable.
[18:18] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[18:19] Tara Bansal: Just. Yeah. The harder part is for me is just thinking about kids activities and things like that.
[18:27] Christina Donovan: And I mean, time constraints are a huge part of it. Um, you know, if you trav regularly for work or you have a.
[18:38] A long commute, I mean, it makes weekday nights to me not an optional. And I mean, that is one of like Nasrats are. Her dinner parties were on I think a Monday.
[18:50] Tara Bansal: Monday night. Yeah.
[18:52] Christina Donovan: Which to me is like the worst night of the week. Oh my gosh, if I even suggested that to Matt, he would be like, no way.
[19:00] Tara Bansal: You know, that is funny.
[19:03] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Yeah.
[19:04] Tara Bansal: I, I read an article, I feel like years ago, but it talked about a Friday night casual get together that was just standing.
[19:14] And she even said she was like I wouldn't. I would straighten up,
[19:21] but I would only give myself, like, five minutes to straighten up. And.
[19:25] And she always served the same thing,
[19:28] so people kind of knew what they were getting and.
[19:32] And left it at that. Like, it. It was much more about the getting together than the food or anything else.
[19:41] Christina Donovan: Yeah,
[19:42] yeah. That's an interesting idea, to always serve the same thing.
[19:47] And it's almost like if that were the case, like, you serve the same main course and then people bring other stuff with different sides or desserts or. I don't know.
[19:58] That's actually a really interesting twist to it, I guess.
[20:02] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And I think it was like just spaghetti and meatballs or something, you know, something simple.
[20:07] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[20:08] Tara Bansal: So if you were a vegetarian, you didn't have to have the meatballs, but they were there as an option and a salad, you know, and so pretty simple.
[20:19] Christina Donovan: I mean, I do think that there's this negative influence of social media,
[20:27] although, I mean, I think it started with Martha Stewart, like, this idea that,
[20:32] you know, everything has to be perfect. Your home has to be spotless, your dinner has to be homemade and has to look beautiful.
[20:44] That, I think, has added to our resistance or the anxiety, apprehension about opening our homes and feeding people.
[20:56] And I'm not sure, like, how you get over that. I mean, it's just such a part of our culture, you know, whether you see it, you know, you. You go and see what other people are making, or they talk about,
[21:08] you see their homes, and it makes you feel like, you know, what are people going to think if I serve the same thing every week or if I have a food disaster, which happens, you know?
[21:23] Tara Bansal: And I. My reaction is if. If.
[21:27] If you and your group of people just start doing it and let go of the judgment and. And, you know, like, have the positive experience without worrying about that. I think it's the getting over that obstacle to just start is my biggest thing.
[21:46] Christina Donovan: Nasret talks about that how there are plenty of nights that she calls them flops. I think when she talks about it, that she said people were cranky or the food wasn't good or kids were not behaving.
[22:02] I don't know, like, she gives a whole host of things. And.
[22:06] And, I mean, we talked about this very common quote, you know, that perfect is the enemy of good. Like,
[22:14] if you want everything to be perfect, it's not gonna be enjoyable because it's not gonna be perfect. I think you have to go in knowing that things are gonna happen and.
[22:26] Yeah.
[22:28] Tara Bansal: And I liked. Well, this is where she talked about those flops or those, you know, like, the party ended early because of kid melt.
[22:38] That she said it didn't feel it was okay because we knew we were getting together next week.
[22:44] Christina Donovan: Right.
[22:44] Tara Bansal: And so that takes the pressure off of, like, oh, well, you know,
[22:49] it just wasn't. Wasn't good tonight. And that's okay.
[22:53] And so.
[22:54] But I have to admit, in the article,
[22:57] I still.
[22:58] She talked about having a centerpiece,
[23:02] and it still sounded like more than what I would do, you know, like what you envision.
[23:09] Christina Donovan: When she talked about, generally about these. These get togethers.
[23:14] Tara Bansal: And that may not be true every time, but I also think for her it was the intentionality of trying to make it special without the pressure expectation of it being perfect and just, you know,
[23:32] making it happen.
[23:34] Christina Donovan: I guess that's some of it, too.
[23:36] You know, like some people, like, when you talk about centerpieces or like, they get enjoyment out of that. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean, like, it.
[23:46] Tara Bansal: It has to be a source of stress or pressure.
[23:50] Christina Donovan: Source of stress, especially if that's not your thing.
[23:53] But I think that's what makes it hard that there are people that enjoy. Think like that might be their favorite part of the evening is thinking about the flowers they're gonna buy and have on the table.
[24:04] And that's where, you know, I do think it. It's kind of.
[24:08] You have to decide what's important to you and just worry about those things and not compare yourself to others or to, you know, what you see on social media or what you see, you know, when you go to other parties or get togethers.
[24:23] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And that. I feel like we talk about that, like, what gives you joy. So focus on that. And if. If it doesn't, then try not to do it right.
[24:33] Christina Donovan: Or minimize that piece of it as.
[24:36] Tara Bansal: Much as you can or find someone else. Do you think you.
[24:42] Christina Donovan: Go ahead. No, go ahead.
[24:43] Tara Bansal: I was going to say, do you think you and Matt have the same outlook for hosting?
[24:49] Christina Donovan: I think we do. I think he hates it.
[24:52] He does not get stressed out about hosting,
[24:55] or at least if he does, it's very minimal. Like, on that scale of 1 to 10, he's probably like a 9, you know,
[25:02] but I think it stresses him out to see me get stressed out.
[25:07] And I think that can definitely.
[25:11] Tara Bansal: Affect.
[25:12] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Kind of take away from his excitement or enjoyment of it.
[25:21] But yeah, he doesn't get stressed out at all. And he. I mean, we've talked about it.
[25:26] Our husbands are both extroverts. I mean, he just.
[25:29] He loves to have people over.
[25:31] Yeah.
[25:32] Tara Bansal: And I Would say. I think you articulated it very well,
[25:36] that I don't think Nimit gets very stressed out, but my stress is what affects him more than anything else.
[25:47] Christina Donovan: So.
[25:48] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And Nimit will, I feel like, always try to come up with ideas of what to serve and is willing to go shopping.
[26:00] Christina Donovan: But Matt too, I mean, I think Matt likes to cook, so, I mean, I think he's always happy to share that piece of it.
[26:13] Tara Bansal: Mm.
[26:14] Christina Donovan: Yeah. Which makes it easier.
[26:20] Tara Bansal: Besides the not having enough of the main course, have you had other.
[26:27] Christina Donovan: I mean, I think I mentioned this at our Thanksgiving. We did have a Thanksgiving where the turkey was really awful. That's the only other one that really stands out to me,
[26:37] that end the graduation party. But they,
[26:40] again, those were kind of, I would say, special occasions. I can't think of an instance where we just had people over and,
[26:51] like, something went wrong, you know?
[26:54] How about you?
[26:56] Tara Bansal: Nothing comes to mind, which is funny.
[26:59] Christina Donovan: Like, what's all this anxiety about you? I know when you've never really had anything truly go wrong or.
[27:10] Tara Bansal: Yeah, and I.
[27:12] I do.
[27:14] Just even listening to us, like, when I go to your house and. Or to mom's or whatever. Like, I think who's ever hosting is always the most critical of their own food.
[27:27] And I think when you make it,
[27:29] I don't know if it's the labor and effort that you put into it or just your.
[27:37] You want it to be so good that then you're more judgmental of it.
[27:44] Christina Donovan: No, that's a good point. I totally agree. And I think also, I mean, we talk about how your house has to be clean. Like, I've never been in a house where I've been like, oh, my gosh, this place is a mess.
[27:55] You know what I mean? I think the things that you see that you think people are gonna notice. I think most people don't.
[28:04] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[28:05] Christina Donovan: I mean, aside from, like, absolute filth. You know what I mean?
[28:09] Tara Bansal: No, but I think, like, it's more the clutter and, like, on our desk we'll have all these different papers and things, but, like, we just put it away.
[28:20] Christina Donovan: Right. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, do you think people.
[28:23] That's the thing. Like, you notice it, but do you think other people would even notice it? Like, I've never noticed your. Maybe because you always put it away.
[28:30] I don't know.
[28:32] Tara Bansal: And I think. I think part of it is Nimit really notices it.
[28:37] Christina Donovan: So for him, that's a.
[28:39] Tara Bansal: For him, it's a source of stress. That is a source of stress. So.
[28:44] And that's Even in our day to day rather than just, you know, having people over. So I think that my antenna is up because I think for him the way he would like it is way more.
[28:59] And I have to admit, like, I.
[29:01] I agree like at the beach house when we go that is something like having less clutter, I feel like brings me this sense of peace and ease that I don't get at home because I have all this stuff, you know, out and in the way.
[29:22] Christina Donovan: So. Yeah. But yeah. And you also still have some of that clutter goes away when your kids leave. Oh yeah.
[29:32] Tara Bansal: Well, and I. Even just the difference from having young kids till now is astronomical. I mean like that would be one of the things.
[29:43] Christina Donovan: Like I guess that's the thing. I guess I hope as we get older that we'll entertain more. And it hasn't really happened. I would say like I don't think we're entertaining more versus four years ago.
[29:57] Well, I guess Covid also.
[29:59] But.
[30:01] But yeah, I mean I. I think you start at least I start to hope that we don't have kids activities anymore. And I mean, you know, we still have work is still obviously sucks up time.
[30:16] But yeah, I guess I hope as we get older that entertaining will become something we do more regularly and easily. But to your point, I think it is true. The more you do it,
[30:30] it's like anything else.
[30:31] Tara Bansal: Yeah, it's true.
[30:34] And just even as we're sitting here talking, like if it really is about getting together,
[30:42] then design it that way. Like order in. You know, like I'm very happy.
[30:49] I mean I.
[30:50] Having pizza and a salad and like, you know that and making brownie, you know, like it's so easy when you think of it. Like you can make it easy and if you give up on judgment and just let people know.
[31:06] Right. Like we're just ordering in or we're, you know, and even that like pizza's not that expensive.
[31:12] You know, if money is the issue or whatever.
[31:17] Yeah.
[31:19] I just feel like we could make it easier if we wanted.
[31:25] Yeah. So why don't we do that?
[31:28] But, but I was also thinking like the one like my book club we were trying for every month and,
[31:38] and even that like generally it's just like snacks and drinks and.
[31:46] Christina Donovan: Right.
[31:46] Tara Bansal: It's not, it's not even like the host has to like provide anything. People bring stuff.
[31:52] But it's.
[31:55] It's not happening as much anymore. It just feels like it's too difficult to find schedule. A schedule.
[32:03] Christina Donovan: Yeah, it is interesting why that is. I mean you were talking about Sort of the circle that you guys see regularly. And I mean, you were saying it's about once a quarter.
[32:14] And I think, like, we have a similar circle. Ours is smaller and it's local. But I keep thinking, why don't we try and schedule a once a month with them?
[32:26] But I mean, doing once a quarter is about what.
[32:30] Yeah. And sometimes we can't even do that. Yeah.
[32:33] Tara Bansal: And same with us. I mean, that's what I.
[32:37] Christina Donovan: And so, yeah, I mean, I know the answer there is you need to make the time, but sometimes you just can't be helped, I guess. Yeah.
[32:50] Tara Bansal: I love the idea. I just am, like, trying to figure out, like, even monthly how something like that could work.
[32:57] Christina Donovan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[33:00] Tara Bansal: And I do feel like back in the day, like, there was always Sunday dinner where families. Bigger families. I know, like on the Italian side, the.
[33:13] Christina Donovan: They spent their Sunday.
[33:14] Tara Bansal: That's how they. That was all of Sunday.
[33:17] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[33:17] Tara Bansal: And you may not go every single week, but it was a standing thing that happened. And I think that's something that's changed is stores weren't open on Sunday.
[33:30] You know, it was way.
[33:32] You know, there wasn't kids sports on Sunday there. It was much different than it is now.
[33:38] Christina Donovan: Yeah. That's actually a really good point that Sunday has become any other day in terms of to do lists and activity. Like, nothing is really exempt anymore from Sunday.
[33:55] So, like, before you would have a day that kind of was automatically set aside.
[34:00] Yeah.
[34:00] Tara Bansal: I mean, there was church and then more open time. We'd love to hear what people think. What else did we miss, Tina?
[34:12] Christina Donovan: I mean, we had some really beautiful quotes for this episode that we didn't really touch.
[34:22] Touch on, but I guess the one. And maybe we just end with this.
[34:28] And it's something that Sam and Nasrat mentions.
[34:32] I read it in the article that she wrote for the Times. But she talks about.
[34:38] It is not a thing that lends significance to a moment. It is the moment that lends significance to things.
[34:47] And it's this idea that getting together itself is sacred.
[34:52] And it's not the food. It's not what we keep saying. It's not the space. It's not the dishes, it's not the flowers. It's. It's the act of being together makes it significant.
[35:05] Yeah.
[35:07] Tara Bansal: And that's what she. She said, like, for how long they'd been doing it. She doesn't remember the food. You know, it was.
[35:16] Christina Donovan: It's always the time and the people. Yeah.
[35:20] Tara Bansal: And for that, I also think it's the cumulation of the time and the repetition of the time.
[35:31] And I love how she said it like it's a sacred ritual.
[35:36] And to me that's like prioritizing that time together.
[35:43] And that to me is I think, part of what both you and I like. We love that idea.
[35:51] So how do we.
[35:53] Christina Donovan: How do you make it happen?
[35:54] Tara Bansal: How do you make it happen?
[35:58] Christina Donovan: We will have links to the article and I listened to Sam and Nasrat on Fresh Air,
[36:09] but there's also several articles out there and we will link to her books in case anyone's interested. Although the recipes in her books didn't interest me as much as what she had to say about gathering.
[36:22] Tara Bansal: Well, and I also thought it was interesting.
[36:25] I mean,
[36:26] she talked about her first cookbook.
[36:30] I mean her 17 years had like been building up to that cookbook. And,
[36:37] and it's not recipes, it's more like the. The basics on how to cook and then you can make anything from her guidance.
[36:48] And I, it's like a 600 page book.
[36:51] I loved how she said, I always said I would never do a cookbook of recipes.
[36:58] And, and I think for me hearing her talk and the articles was like I had to let go of some of my harsh,
[37:09] staunch,
[37:11] never beliefs like to open myself up to new things. And to me, I just loved that she was willing to change and look at things, you know,
[37:22] differently. Differently.
[37:25] And so this cookbook is of recipes and just the one interview, the about face that.
[37:36] Christina Donovan: That she underwent. Yeah, yeah.
[37:37] Tara Bansal: To get there, which I thought was interesting.
[37:41] So, yeah, this relates to messy middlescence. You know, like we have these rules and ideas and I think beliefs of what the way things should and need to be and how can we be more open to trying new things or viewing things differently and being together.
[38:06] Christina Donovan: I mean,
[38:07] that was one of the things.
[38:08] Not to dwell on past episodes, but Carl Richards really stressed,
[38:14] like the hardest part about change is not doing it. It's the thinking about doing something differently. And that is ultimately the trickiest part.
[38:26] Tara Bansal: Yeah,
[38:28] this is kind of a segue. But Tina was,
[38:31] we were talking about planning for this episode and I originally was talking about hosting Thanksgiving and I was talking to a friend about how stressed out I was.
[38:47] And I said, I come from.
[38:49] Tina and my mom are both like Martha Stewart themselves. Like the beautiful table and the way they do everything and present it. And I was like, I feel like I can't live up to that.
[39:02] That's not my strengths. And then when Tina and I were talking about this, Tina's like, I think we can call it the Anti Martha Stewart episode.
[39:10] Christina Donovan: Yeah.
[39:11] Tara Bansal: And it was just so funny because I had just like the day before or so like had made that comment that I feel like I can't live up to that expectation.
[39:22] Yeah.
[39:22] Christina Donovan: But again I think it's.
[39:25] Tara Bansal: And your reaction is like I shouldn't be that way. But. But I guess acknowledging. Yeah. That there is like this wanting to live up to the expectation that I feel like you everything perfectly.
[39:41] Christina Donovan: Yeah, I can. Yeah.
[39:43] But I think that's the thing. I mean,
[39:46] nobody is perfect. And that's why Martha Stewart is so dangerous, is she makes us feel like we have to be and it detracts from the whole point, you know?
[39:58] Tara Bansal: Yeah. And that's why I love the quote. Perfect is the enemy of good. It's like what's good enough and what do you really care about?
[40:08] And it shouldn't be,
[40:11] you know,
[40:12] how beautiful everything is. It's about the beautiful time that you have together.
[40:17] Yeah.
[40:18] So.
[40:20] All right, till next time.
[40:22] Thanks so much.
[40:24] Christina Donovan: Thanks everyone.
[40:25] Christina Donovan: Our connection challenge today is to think about starting a ritual or regular gathering with a small group of friends.
[40:34] We recommend doing this as an exercise and go through the planning process.
[40:39] Think about who you would invite, what form the gathering would take, like a game night, a dinner party, drinks and hors d', oeuvres, et cetera.
[40:48] Think about how frequently you could schedule a regular get gathering. Once a week, once a month, once a quarter.
[40:57] And then think about the ways you could make this easier for yourself by ordering takeout or doing a potluck.
[41:04] And then finally, what are the things that you would enjoy about having this particular kind of gathering? And what are the things that you might dislike or cause you stress?
[41:15] And then how can you minimize the parts that you dislike or stress you out?
[41:21] Christina Donovan: And then we recommend taking one last.
[41:24] Christina Donovan: Step and just hold a one time get together thinking about some of the ideas that you had during this exercise.
[41:35] Invite the group and just do it as a one time get together and then see.
[41:42] Maybe you will be motivated to make it a more regular thing and follow through on your planning.
[41:51] Otherwise you'll have a great evening or afternoon with friends and or family.
[41:57] Tara Bansal: Thanks for listening to messy middle lessons.
[42:01] If you enjoyed today's episode,
[42:03] it would mean so much to us. If you subscribed, shared it with a friend or leave a quick review.
[42:10] It really helps more people find us and we're so grateful that you're here.
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Samin Nosrat Interviews & Articles
Fresh Air Interview (NPR) — Samin Nosrat on cooking, community, and her new book
Samin Nosrat shares recipes in her 'Good Things' cookbook : NPRNew York Times Profile — “How Samin Nosrat Found Her Way Back to Joy” https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/15/dining/samin-nosrat-dinner-party-recipes.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zE8.cUyJ.6-ZEfjCQZEvE&smid=url-share
Bon Appetit Article - “How Samin Nosrat Got Her Groove Back”
https://www.bonappetit.com/story/samin-nosrat-good-things-book?srsltid=AfmBOoqO9xbDUCOCEDD91efH0nJEd0ljf8ysKZxbTHtEo69NXJKRQHfH
Referenced Article
The Atlantic — “Americans Need to Party More”
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2025/01/throw-more-parties-loneliness/681203/Samin Nosrat’s Books
Good Things: Recipes and Rituals to Share with People You Love: A Cookbook (2024)
Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat: Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking
Netflix Series - Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat: Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking -
Create Your Own Gathering Ritual
This week’s Connection Challenge invites you to imagine — and gently experiment with — a simple gathering ritual of your own.
Start by thinking through a few questions:
• Who would you love to gather with?
A small group of friends, neighbors, or family members who feel easy and enjoyable.• What form would the gathering take?
A game night, a casual dinner, drinks and hors d’oeuvres, a Sunday morning coffee — whatever feels natural.• How often could you realistically meet?
Once a week, once a month, once a quarter — choose a cadence that feels do-able, not stressful.• How can you make it easier on yourself?
Order takeout, make one simple dish, or host a potluck. Lowering the effort often increases the joy.• What parts of hosting would you enjoy? What parts might stress you out?
Notice both. Then think about how to minimize the stressful pieces so you can focus on connection.After you’ve imagined your ritual, take one small step:
Host a one-time gathering using the ideas you sketched out.
Invite the group. Keep it simple. See how it feels.Maybe that one gathering will inspire you to make it a more regular ritual — or maybe it will simply be a lovely afternoon or evening with people you enjoy. Either way, it’s a meaningful step toward more connection.
And when you do, we’d love to hear how it goes.
Share your story with us here at messymiddlescence.com.