12. Always Keep Learning with Kellie Walenciak
“Purpose plays a key role in longevity; let’s reframe retirement to include contributing, learning, and growing.”
In this enlightening episode we discuss retirement and aging with Kellie Walenciak based on her published article 'The Secret to Immortality: Why I Will Never Retire'. Kellie challenges the conventional notion of retirement, advocating for a shift towards working “by choice” to find purpose and meaning in one's later years.
Kellie's own experiences, as well as her inspiring stories of others, highlight the importance of staying curious, embracing change, and continually learning throughout life.
She also discusses the concept of “Blue Zones”, where people live longer and healthier lives, and which emphasize the cognitive and social benefits of staying active and engaged. Overall, this episode offers valuable insights and advice for those in middlescence looking to age intentionally and age well.
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[00:21] Christina Donovan: Are you between the ages of 40 and 60? Do you feel the need for change in your life, but are not sure why or when or how? Do you feel a pressure of running out of time? Do you spend most of your time doing things that are not important to you anymore? These are all symptoms or characteristics of middlescence. And this is our podcast, Messy Middlescence. Today we talk with our first non family guest, which is a big change for Tara and I and our podcast. Kellie Walenciak is a friend of mine. Her son Ryan is a very close friend of my son Jimmy. And it is through Jimmy and Ryan's friendship and as roommates their first year at college that my husband and I got to know Kellie and her husband. Kellie is one of the most interesting people I know. I always love to talk to her and when I saw she had published an article on aging and retirement, I knew she would be perfect for our podcast. I do recommend strapping on your seatbelt as you listen. It is impossible to listen to Kellie without feeling her enthusiasm and energy. And she will motivate and inspire you to begin thinking about aging intentionally and aging well. Today we are honored to have Kellie Walenciak as our guest. Kellie published an article in September of 2023 on ages.com titled the Secret to Immortality, why I will never retire. And Tara and I are most excited to discuss her thoughts and ideas about retirement on today's episode of Messy Middlescence. Welcome, Kellie. We are so happy and excited to have you on our podcast.
[02:03] Kellie Walenciak: Thank you for having me.
[02:05] Tara Bansal: Will you just tell us a little bit about yourself, both personally and professionally? We'd love to hear. I'm a Brene Brown fan, so I always say, what's your story.
[02:17] Kellie Walenciak: Oh, okay. Yeah, actually. So I live in eastern Pennsylvania with my husband, and we kind of just went through this phase of becoming empty nesters because our youngest just went off to college in August. So that's been quite a transition for us professionally. I am the head of marketing and communications for a sales and marketing organization that is based in Phoenix, Arizona. What we do is we deliver revenue as a service for enterprise companies. So some of our clients include SAP, Adobe, GE, securist technologies, and we kind of focus on inside sales and demand generation. Now, all of that probably sounds pretty boring, but what's interesting about our company is we do it with a workforce that's mostly incarcerated. So we have about 350 women who are incarcerated in state run prison facilities in Arizona, Florida and Indiana. And what we actually do is we hire them and we teach them business acumen, the art of sales and marketing, and basically give them the support, the tools, and the opportunity they need to actually kind of build careers while they're incarcerated. And then we have a foundation. We're the for profit side. We have a foundation that works with them as they get closer to reentry, to kind of pick up where the business leaves off, I like to say, and kind of give them the added support that they need to help with transition. So kind of thinking, financial literacy training, addressing the issues that led them to prison, career readiness, resume writing, job placement. So all of that. And this company has been operating since 1994, and we have a 5.4% recidivism rate compared to the national average, which three years is 68. It's five years. It jumps up to 80. So it's a model that works, and it's a model that is very inspiring, I think, being a part of it.
[04:28] Tara Bansal: Yeah, I checked out your website, and I said to Tina, just reading the website made me want to work. Like, I don't know how much you had with just the values and the focus and the feeling of what the company does. I don't know. It was inspirational, so you should feel proud.
[04:51] Kellie Walenciak: How long? One thing I want to say about that is the company actually started. Two men started the company in 1994. That was the same year the Teflon crime bill was passed. So thinking about that, the mood of the country was kind of lock them up and throw away the key. And then off in this kind of area of Phoenix were these two guys who thought, you know what? I kind of think people need a second chance and built a company based on that. So you're is. It is pretty extraordinary, and I'm lucky to be a part of it, certainly. There were so many people who built it.
[05:23] Tara Bansal: Can you tell us a little bit, like, where you grew up and if you have siblings any more background, like, for just what you. Or study, things like that?
[05:37] Kellie Walenciak: Yeah. I was born in New York and moved to New Jersey when I was about five years old. So exit 123 off the parkway. That's what Jersey. That's how people from Jersey know where you're from, is. Like, what exit. And I'm the oldest. I have a brother and a sister. I actually grew up in very traditional household, very irish. My mother did work, but kind of had job, not necessarily a career. Kind of worked to help make eds meet and all that. And my dad worked for the port authority, and, yeah, I always had a job. I started working when I was 15 years old, just because at the time, I think back then, was a little different for certain classes than it is today, where it was very much like, you work because you liked money and because you wanted to buy things. So, yeah, had early exposure to that babysitting and paper routes, and then eventually waitressing. But, yeah, we grew up in Saraville, New Jersey, so Bon Jovi put us on the, uh. And lived there for probably, well, a long time. Until, actually, my husband and I ended up moving to Westfield for a period, and then before we moved. But most of my years have been spent growing up in that kind of Saranville O Bridge area.
[07:03] Tara Bansal: Very nice. I'm interested in this, like, where did it come from? And even how did you get it published, and how much do you do writing on the side? Tell us more about that.
[07:18] Kellie Walenciak: Well, I will tell you that everything I write kind of ties back to my position. It's an opportunity to kind of engage in some thought leadership that might send a message, make people curious enough about the writer so that they inevitably come back to our website and learn more about Televerde. So anything I write is always with the idea of something that I believe in or something I believe I could comment on, but it always has that kind of tie back. Or the hope is that I'll get people interested in my company. Our company, I should say. But with this article, it was interesting because I think for me, it's been like a series of events and maybe observations. Now, the first one is when I was 23 years old, I went on my first business trip. I don't even know why I was there. It was outside of Philadelphia. And I found myself in this workshop there where the guy was talking about retirement. Not at all a subject I was interested in at 23 years of age. If I had my phone then, I certainly would have been on it. But times were different. Actually sit there and listen, and I remember him saying something that stopped me dead on my tracks. And he was talking about retirement and how important it is to prepare for that. And I'm sure most people in that room, like I did, thought financially, but that's not what his presentation was about. It was preparing mentally. And he basically had given a number that I don't remember. And I did try to find it. Of the number of people who die within the first year of retirement. And I remember it being really shocking. And the reason being that they feel as though they kind of lack purpose. They don't have that relevancy anymore. And for whatever reason, it just always stayed. And it was one of those things that I can't explain it. I just never forgot it. And I kind of put it in the back of my head. So that was kind of like this first kind of discussion point about retirement. And then I think years later, I come into this televerde opportunity and I'm meeting with these women who are incarcerated. And to say that most of them have had a poor upbringing would be an understatement. I mean, when you hear their stories, I'm always floored that they're still here. And it's like, not only are they still here, but they've gotten to a point where they say, okay, you know what? I'm going to do a 180, and I am going to learn as much as I can to be able to have the tools to change my life when I get it out of here. And I'm seeing this happen with women who are as young as 20 years old, who are as old as 60 and 70 years old. So for me, I'm working with this workforce that seems to have no limitations, that society easily kind of places on people. They're just constantly going and learning. And I joke with them all the time, but it's really only half a joke. It's the first time in my career I feel like the underachiever, their willingness to just want to keep learning. There isn't anything that you can add. There isn't an opportunity that pass out. There isn't a technology that they think, which I hear all this too hard, I don't want to learn this. And they're just constantly going. So that's kind of another event. And then I think little things that have been happening where really kind of this past year where I've had people say to me, so what are your retirement plans? And it always kind of catches me, and I've heard it a lot, but it always catches me off guard because first of all, I think, don't I look too young to retire? Like, please? Yeah, I'm only 54 last year. I'm only 53, so I haven't even thought of it. I've still got kids on payroll. So the thought of retiring is so far from my thinking, but yet it seems to be the natural question that I think people get when you get into your fifty s, and certainly as you kind of grow into your fifty s and more in your sixty s, I think it's even more. So, like, why are you still working? That type of thing? So all of those things kind of together started me really thinking about and my husband really, it's like, okay, well, what does retirement look like, for us, and do we want to retire? Because at the same time, we're kind of very health conscious, and we're in this plant based community. So then there was, like, kind of this scientific side that came into play, which is where these blue zones come in. So I'm part of a community that really kind of focuses on the eating. And when I learned about the blue zones again, probably about seven years ago, it was more than just the healthy eating and the activity. There's nine pillars. So let me back up. Let me tell you what the blue zones are. So National Geographic partnered with this journalist by the name of Dan Buetner to go out and actually find the regions of the world where people live the longest without medication or medical interventions. And they basically got it down to kind of these five regions. There's only one in the United States. It's in Loma Linda, California. And they came up with nine pillars. So, like, what these regions have in common, and the one, I will say, when I went through them, most of them, to me, felt rather intuitive. Like, of course, you got to move more. You got to restrict your calories. Light alcohol, I think he says, moderate alcohol and all that. So very intuitive. But the one that popped up for me was the purpose and this idea that these people, they're not working for retirement. They're working because they can, because they can contribute. And as long as they're physically and mentally able to do that, they're going to continue to contribute. And I thought that was really meaningful. And it really started me, coupled with all these other observations and events that I shared with you, even more, so to think, okay, there's a cognitive benefit to continuing to contribute. Retiring to maybe you travel sometimes or whatever, but to do what a lot of people do, which is not much, you're home a lot, you do things. It has a negative impact on our cognitive health. And that cognitive health is very important as well, because my husband comes from a family that has Alzheimer's disease as well. So this was something that when we learned about it, it started to come into our discussions more and as a reason, like, another reason for us to really rethink retirement. So that was really what kind of got me off on writing this article. Oh, and I also think, too, because at the time, blue zones was a book some people read, some people don't read. But I think around that September timeframe, the blue zones was going to Netflix. So I knew it would reach more people and hopefully have the same kind of impact that it had on us. So I think what I've kind of learned, and my husband, thankfully, is on board. I kind of wrote this down, but I said, like, read to me, is the transition from working out of necessity to working by choice. And I think there's liberation in that because you're in it for you. So you get rid of the stressors. So in other words, you're no longer going to tolerate if you don't have to work, you're no longer going to tolerate a bad boss. You're no longer going to tolerate a bad company. You're no longer going to tolerate a long commute or a lack of purpose. But it's an acknowledgment that says, you know what? I can still contribute in a way that's meaningful. And I want to continue to do that because it's better for the world, my corner of the world. And it's also good because of what it gives me and then kind of figuring out what those skills are and then also committing yourself to becoming a lifelong learner, because that's where your brain is really activated. It's when you're learning something new that could be learning an instrument. Know, in my case, I never completed my college degree. And I said to my husband, after Sienna went off to school, I started kind of reflecting. Know, I was sitting home and I'm like, Matt went on a business trip, actually. And I was like, what did my life look like before kids? And I realized then that, well, I was going into the office, so I don't have that option now. I went into an office every day because my office is in Phoenix, and I was going out with my friends or dating or going out with a boyfriend, whoever. At the time, I didn't really have hobbies. So that's what made me think, you know what? Maybe I need to go back to college and finish my degree. Well, I didn't even say degree. I just said I love learning. Maybe I'll go back to college and just take classes. And my husband was like, hey, we're going to pay to go back to classes. Why don't you finish that degree? I actually started college again in January, and my plan is to continue going and then eventually going to maybe an accelerated bachelor's master's program in the hopes of maybe transitioning into some type of innocence project work or something where I can kind of stay committed in the justice system. So, again, it's just a way of, I think, for me, committing to your cognitive health as much as what we think of as physical health, which is the activity and the eating and all that. But really, what can I do more cognitively? Because there are so many benefits to that. So, yeah, that's what I would say. And also, too, I'll add, because I know I'm talking a lot, but my own observations about people who retire. Now, I'm not criticizing anyone who retires. I mean, you work a long life. This is what we've been promised. But I will say that I've observed some changes in people where you might question how valuable total retirement is on your health, on your brain health, because it's very easy to become more, I think, set in your own ways because you're not challenged, you're not brought in to kind of solve issues with a diverse group of people. I think all of that, it takes a toll where maybe your EQ starts to decrease and you find yourself criticizing the younger generation more instead of connecting with them. And I think the longer we commit ourselves to learning and to growing as we get older, the easier it is to forge those connections with the younger generation. And it's important because you have kids, you have grandkids. Some people have great grandkids. And to be able to connect with them. One show, that one woman who I think is a really good example of this is Judy Shine. She's got this new program, court program or whatever, but she's on it with her granddaughter. And the relationship that they have is really strong. And there's an intellectual. I mean, she's wisdom. She definitely imparts wisdom. But they can connect in kind of like this workplace setting where it's not just going there and grandma doesn't understand technology. And isn't that funny? And repeating this, I mean, they're really on the same wavelength, and I think that makes for stronger relationships. As you age with the people in your life who are younger, you'll always be their elder, but you can, in a lot of ways, become their peer as well, where they're coming to you for advice. Hey, I have this problem at work. How can you help me? That type of thing. I think, for me, that's incredibly rewarding. Yeah. It's inspiring to see that kind of relationship between a granddaughter and a grandmother. It doesn't seem obligatory between the granddaughter. With the grandmother, it seems like they're genuinely getting something beneficial. There's growth happening, they're coming together, and they're learning from each other, and that's.
[20:19] Tara Bansal: You. Have you heard of the blue zones before?
[20:22] Christina Donovan: I had. I did not realize they were on Netflix, though, I'll be honest. That was news to me. But I've heard of them in, I think, more of a light media. Like, I've seen articles on them in the New York Times or maybe in the New Yorker. I don't know. But I have not read the book, and I was not aware that they were on Netflix. It was on Netflix, you said. Right, right.
[20:51] Kellie Walenciak: I think it's three or four episodes. Yeah. And actually, like, going to where they did an experiment where they tried to create a blue zone in a town, it may have been in Michigan. I'm not sure. Don't quote me on that. But where they try to change the eating habits of the people there and activity and socialization and all of that is very compelling.
[21:19] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[21:21] Christina Donovan: Did you get much feedback or responses to the article that you wrote?
[21:27] Kellie Walenciak: It's funny because I had to look it up because to see, when I wrote this article and I saw that it was in September. And it's interesting because I'd have to go back and look on LinkedIn, what the engagement was when I first shared it. So people may have liked it. I don't know the total number of likes, but I will say what. Something interesting that's happened is the past few weeks, since probably, like, the second week or third week in January on LinkedIn, I've been getting either LinkedIn requests or private messages. And when people are linking in with me, they're saying, hey, I recently read your article on Aegis, and that's probably happened since the second week of January, like five or six times now. Didn't prompt me to go back and look for the article, but what I'm assuming is when they wrote that to me, they probably engaged with the article in some way, clicked on, like, or something like that, in which case, when you do that on LinkedIn, it kind of then sees that the article is getting interaction again and it'll start showing up in people's newsfeeds again. And just yesterday, I got a call from Business Insider, and they want to interview me about this article. So it was the timely. It's really kind of crazy. Yeah.
[22:47] Christina Donovan: Well, we snatched you first.
[22:50] Tara Bansal: Well, maybe we started it because we were clicking on it so often.
[22:55] Kellie Walenciak: We helped.
[22:57] Tara Bansal: So that could be.
[23:00] Christina Donovan: Do you have any retirement heroes or mean. I know you mentioned Judy and her granddaughter, but I mean, anybody within your actual day to day life that you look to as having aged well or that you want to emulate?
[23:18] Kellie Walenciak: Well, my boss, well, my former CEO, who she was my CMO when I worked at Avaya, and she actually brought me to televerde. She's no longer the CEO. She definitely is. I mean, she's gone in and out of retirement. She definitely doesn't need to work for the financial aspect. So she'll kind of go off and they'll boat and do things together and travel around the world, ski and all that. And then she inevitably gets the itch, like, I have to kind of contribute and go back to work, but this is kind of like another observation or event, if you will. I remember I would do her LinkedIn account. Don't tell anybody that I would do her LinkedIn. So I would post as her. And while I was on her LinkedIn, I saw where the COO, the chief operations officer where her daughter worked, had written a nice kind of post about her daughter. So I texted Morag. That was her name, Morag. And I said, hey, might want to go online comment. There was a nice thing that Anna Baird wrote about Rebecca. And probably like a couple of days later, I thought, oh, let me. I went in, I wanted to know what Morag wrote. And Morag wrote something very lovely to her daughter. And her daughter replied and said, everything I learned, I learned from you, I'm still learning from you, and talked about her daughter, said what an inspiration that Morag had been and continues to be, and that everything she learned in business and technology came from her. And it kind of blew me away because I really thought to know, again, it's like what a connection to have with your grown child at that age, for your child to see you as impacting their business career. Now, as I said, I didn't really have that because I think my mom wasn't career oriented. She worked, but she didn't have that career and would tell people about televorte, probably didn't really understand what it was that I did. So when I saw that, I thought, it's another kind of example to me of the importance of kind of staying relevant. And by relevant, I mean continuing to learn and to not be afraid of things changing, to embrace change, to not be critical of the generations coming up, to figure out ways to support them and learn from them, and also to remember that you were once where they were. We kind of romanticize how we were when we were young, which reminds me of that kind of breakfast club moment where the janitor says to the principal, like, it's not the kids that have changed, you changed. That's a really powerful message because of course it is. We become more kind of intolerant and more set in our ways. And I think you have to be intentional about not becoming that way. And I know for me, I have to be intentional of going out and being social because my inclination is to kind of stay home. I'm more of a homebody. But recognizing that that might not be the best thing for me, physically, cognitively, all of that. So kind of being intentional about putting myself out there, it's why I chose to go to school in person versus online, to have that kind of social interaction, which, again, is very important to everything that we're doing. So she's definitely one person. And I will say, I have an uncle, my mother's brother, who is 82 years old. He still works, not because he has to, because he loves it. And if you met him, you would never in a million years think he was 82. He walks with a forcefulness. He isn't kind of slow or deliberate in his walking. He's very kind of talkative. He's very up on current events. He's typical sales guy. He kind of never lost that kind of sales guy edge to him. And it's because he never got out. And I had asked him, I saw him around the holidays, actually. I said to his partner, I said, is my uncle still working? And she said, yeah, he'll never quit. And in my head, I thought, yeah, you know what? Good for him. It's a smart way to be. And again, because he loves what he does and there aren't, like, the stressors, he can deal with them. Because again, when you don't have to work, when you don't have to be contributing and you're really doing it for you, and just to kind of support other people in some way or a company or whatever, even nonprofit, whatever you decide to do, you're in control. So you don't have to tolerate what has always been intolerable, but maybe because you had a financial need, you accepted it, which we all do, because working for financial necessity, you do, you tolerate more. But when you're working for yourself, you don't. You could take your skills or whatever you're bringing, you can go somewhere else with them and continue to have impact.
[28:26] Christina Donovan: That was something in your article that really made me think, because you talked about your skill as a writer and how that is something that stays with you. Beyond that, that's something you'll be able to do the rest of your life. And for those of us that work that don't have a passion for their job, I think that's a really good distinction in that. What are the skills that I have that either I love to do, or I know that I'm good at. And look at your work after retirement from more of a skill base maybe, than from either just a prestige based or a specific company based, because that pretty much everyone can relate to versus I did this job and I have to do this job. It's like taking the things that you like from your job or the things that you were good from your job, and you can ignore all the other kind of bad stuff that you can't control. I don't know. I thought that was really interesting to me when I read your article. It made me think about it in those terms.
[29:36] Kellie Walenciak: Yeah. And I think that's really important because I know somebody who retired from teaching two years ago, and he's a brilliant photographer today. So he had been taking kind of pictures in his spare time while teaching. I know he just had a photography show down in Easton, and he's really turned this into a passion and almost like, you'd say, like a second career almost. And again, it's got everything. Learning how to do the camera. He's manipulating photos, I assume, in maybe a dark room or online with Photoshop tools and kind of learning all of that. So your brain is constantly engaged. And then he has these shows where he shows off his artwork, and there's that kind of socialization aspect, and he's getting validation. So you're kind of getting that recognition for what you've done or what you're contributing. And, yeah, it's a very good way because you're getting benefits and you're connecting with people and you're still learning and growing. And I think all of that needs to continue. Probably should become more emphasized or something as we do grow. Yeah, because I think the expectation is we give people passes, right. Well, don't teach her the gps. She'll never get it. She's too old. It's like, no, we could sit down and learn and people being open, because I think the harder it is for people to learn things, it's not because they're not capable, it's because the mind shuts down. So if we never allow our mind to shut down, we'll just always be open to learning new things, as we always have been as kids. And I think that's the most impressive thing that I've seen. Is it the most? I mean, they're pretty philanthropic, too, so I love that. But with the younger generation growing up on technology is their willingness to adapt. And just any new top technology comes out, you give it to them and they can figure it out in minutes. And it's really impressive. And it's kind of another area where I think it's important for all of us to grow and kind of stay on top with that, because it is our connection to the world. I mean, the world is run on technology. So, yeah, not being able to download a Netflix show, I don't know. How cute is that, really? It's cute for a minute, maybe.
[32:04] Tara Bansal: Well, I don't know if Tina told you how much she told you about my background, but I work as a financial planner and have for almost 20 years. And so I have seen this. I loved your article because I felt like you're preaching to the choir. And I think, as a society, we're sold this expectation, which is just what you said. We almost need to reshape that and market it or publicize it. And I love even how you phrased it at the beginning of not working because you have to, but working because you want to.
[32:47] Kellie Walenciak: Right?
[32:48] Tara Bansal: From my perspective, having that financial freedom whenever it occurs or even planning, I may not have complete financial freedom, but if I made $50,000 a year, I'm going to be okay. And to know that, and I've also seen so many clients that counted down the days till their retirement, and then two years later, they come in and they're like, I'm bored. I thought I'd be happy just reading and playing golf every day and traveling a few times a year. I want everyone to know, I think I say, I don't plan on retiring because I want to just design what I get to do in a way that fits what I want. Just like you were saying, right?
[33:42] Kellie Walenciak: Right. Yeah. I think it's. Look, we all want to be relevant, right? I mean, we all want to feel needed. And I think, especially with parents, probably more so with moms, whether working moms or stay at home moms, there comes this time where you realize your kids don't need you. What do you do next? What do you do after that? And how do you get that relevancy and that feeling of being needed? I think you can create that for yourself in a way that is very good for you and then also supports other people. It's not to say, either that for profit companies are, like, evil. Like, hey, we leave for profit, we go to nonprofit. I can name a lot of for profit companies that are doing really extraordinary things with their business operations. So there are many different kind of avenues to supporting, to getting that kind of validation and contributing and making a difference and all of that in a way that is actually good for you. As I said, anybody who retires, it's amazing. And I'm really not being critical of that. We all make different decisions and whatever works for you. I would just like to see the narrative around retirement change, and more people understand that there is more to working, doing, and contributing than just reaping a paycheck. Yeah. It's feeling purposeful, and that's important.
[35:32] Tara Bansal: And the benefits that you get from that. Like you were saying, one using your brain, having the social interactions. Having. And that sense of meaning or usefulness, too. Yeah.
[35:45] Kellie Walenciak: I think I point out, I'm not sure if it was this article, because I did write something else on ageism, but I think it was this article with the decline in short term memory the first year.
[35:54] Tara Bansal: Yeah.
[35:55] Kellie Walenciak: It climbs, on average, 30%. That's significant.
[35:58] Tara Bansal: That is.
[36:00] Christina Donovan: That's a crazy statistic.
[36:03] Kellie Walenciak: It is. And I'm not even retired, but sometimes, I don't know. My husband keeps saying, oh, it's because your brain is like a local area network and you're always, like, thinking of multiple things. But there are things that have been happening maybe the past kind of couple of years that didn't happen ten years ago, where I'll just come downstairs. I'm like, you'll never believe this. And he's like, what? And I'm like, I forgot. And that happens more than once. I start to thinking, like. And I'm sitting there like, what was I going to say? There was something. I'm excited. I've got jump in my side. I get down there, I'm like, I can't remember. And again, that's kind of a part of aging. But I say to myself, does it have to be a part of aging if I can kind of keep my brain kind of doing more and become more sharp? And that's what I said for me, I've always had work, but I've been a telecommuter for close to 20 years. And while I will always support someone's desire to work remotely, I will say now, I started to question, like, is working remotely the best thing for me, cognitively where you're not having that social interaction? Because the more I read, the more important it is. So again, for me, it was like, hey, you know what? I got to go back to school. And a lot of people said, why don't you just do it online? And I'm like, no, because if I went to in the office every day, probably I would do it online. But I need that social interaction. I need those kind of widely discussions. Yeah, it's important, and I've been lacking that. So again, it's kind of being intentional as we age, so that we can age in a way that, what I would say quantity of years. Right. Don't have a lot of control over that some, but have quantity of years and quality of years. And that should be the goal, is to have both. And that's kind of our goal.
[38:00] Christina Donovan: Can we maybe take a little break from talking about retirement and talk about the phase right before retirement? Terry and I, we talk about.
[38:13] Kellie Walenciak: I.
[38:13] Christina Donovan: Mean, would you say right now, this time of your life, is what you imagined? Is it different or the same from what you had expected or hoped for.
[38:23] Tara Bansal: Or what you thought?
[38:30] Kellie Walenciak: I'm not sure that I spent much time kind of thinking ten years ago what I might be doing ten years from now. I think I probably spend more time on it now because I realize that once you hit a certain decade, things can go wrong, physically, cognitively, and all that. So it's kind of like a real focus on wanting to age as healthfully as we can. Right. So for me, I think, yeah, because I never really thought, I think if you had asked me ten years ago, it probably wouldn't be much different than this. I think what's different for me is what I didn't think was possible was I didn't think I could work for a company with a for profit company that had such a strong purpose. So that has been a gift for me. I always thought, well, I always struggled with not having purpose when I was in high tech, but I figured, well, you know what? Once the kids retire, I'll just switch to a nonprofit because salaries are basically slashed when you go to a nonprofit. I think that was, for me, something that I didn't anticipate that I was able to have was this kind of, like, really purposeful work environment. But I can't say I really spent much time kind of. I don't really think ahead.
[39:59] Christina Donovan: Because you're not truly an empty nester. I think when kids are in college, that's not a full empty nest because they keep coming back. It's kind of. But how has that transition been for you and Matt?
[40:11] Kellie Walenciak: Well, I think it's been good. I think it's been much better. And to your point, too, we're very connected. I think technology helps kind of lessen that physical separation because you're in constant touch with them. So it feels like even though you're not seeing them, it feels like you are in some ways. But I think for Matt, it's been going really well. He just got in a new job. It's in medical devices, but it's working with technology now, which is new for him, kind of learning this kind of tech side of medical devices. So that's been great for him. And then, as I said, for me, it's kind of going back to school, signing up for a flex, tennis league, traveling. I'm taking the kids to London. So I think it's a lot better than I think I probably would have imagined. Where it's not sadness for that first week when we dropped Sienna off, and again, kind of reflecting on, okay, well, kind of figuring out, well, what was my life like before, and then seeing what I needed to do in order to make my life meaningful outside of having kids underfoot every day. And they do kind of like, it's not just like you wake up and the kids are. It's they need you less and less. Once they get their license right, you always have kind of door opening. They come into the room recapping their day. So it's like not having that. But I think it's been good. I tell you what I love is Sienna, our daughter is a Stem major. And it's interesting because I'm a complete right brain person. My left side of my brain has been on life support since I'm young. But the class that I'm taking, one of the classes I'm taking is actually biology. But again, an interesting connection to have with her because she's like, oh, I have a bio quiz today. I'm like, oh, I have one on Monday. Of course, I'm in for non stem. It's a non Stem class. She's in the StEM class, so hers is much better. But I could go to her now with issues like what? So it's great. Again, it's like a connection that you wouldn't expect to have with your kid and your kid wouldn't expect to have with you, but it's a great connection.
[42:34] Tara Bansal: Yeah. That's really special.
[42:36] Kellie Walenciak: Yeah.
[42:36] Tara Bansal: Can I ask what program are you in or planning or hoping to do?
[42:45] Kellie Walenciak: Yeah, well, the easiest thing for me, I only have a couple of classes to go to get an associate's degree, so I'm at the community college. So it's just the easiest thing. Looking at everything that I took is a communications degree. Now, when I transfer into Penn State, it'll be interesting because it sounds crazy. I shouldn't even say it out loud, but I had this desire to, like, maybe I would go to law school, get my undergraduate degree and go to law school because I would really love to work with this organization called Innocence Project that works to free the wrongly convicted. I went to a conference. I had to speak at a conference, and I met two lawyers who said, do not go to law school. So that was interesting. They said, you might as well be a paralegal. You could do other things to kind of help the innocence project. So they were kind of down on it. But I figured I'll just kind of see because law does, it's always fascinated me. A big component of law is writing, which it's a skill that I have. And as I said, I would love to be able to, I figured if I got spend like maybe the last 20 years or whatever up until, I don't know, I don't even want to think about the age, 80, 80, whatever it is, working in that type of capacity because, yeah, it's definitely very meaningful to me, and I can't think of a better purpose than getting someone who's innocent off of death row or out of jail or whatever the case is.
[44:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah, we have a college friend who when we graduated college, his mother went to law school and got her law degree. I don't know exactly how old she was, but she was in her fifty s, I believe, and she did, she got her law degree and her husband retired and she worked as a lawyer for, I think it was too long, maybe ten or 15 years. But it's definitely possible.
[44:40] Kellie Walenciak: Yeah, no, it definitely is possible. Yeah. It's just interesting. Hearing lawyers say don't bother in any career.
[44:47] Christina Donovan: You hear that? I think doctors say, I don't know. You hear nurses say that. You hear teachers say that.
[44:53] Kellie Walenciak: Very true.
[44:55] Christina Donovan: And yours is with a very specific.
[44:59] Kellie Walenciak: Goal.
[45:02] Christina Donovan: The population that you want to work with and the things that you want to achieve.
[45:06] Kellie Walenciak: Right.
[45:09] Christina Donovan: I mean, is there anything, obviously taking classes and going back to school is part of your plan, but are there other things you are doing to mentally prepare for the next phase? I don't want to call it retirement because we're trying to rebrand that word.
[45:27] Kellie Walenciak: Right. Yeah, maybe transition, but yeah, staying active. Tennis, I think he talks about this. He definitely talks about it in his book. Is one of the best sport actually to play as you're getting older is any racket sport, and it is because the cardiovascular angle, but also because your brain has to be fully engaged. When you play a racket sport, you have to constantly be focused on what you're going to do next and where you have to go on the court to get the ball to return the whatever. So Matt's always been a tennis player. I have not. But I started taking tennis lessons last year. We were part of the Northwood Flex league in the winter, and we're going to do that again. And just trying to do. I say to him, too, maybe I'll learn to play the ukulele. And he's just like, hey, calm down now. Yeah, I'm taking a class now, too, Thursday nights at the banana factory to learn Photoshop for photography, to maybe get into that a little, you know, it's almost like, I don't know. You remember the Brady bunch where Marcia goes to high school and she didn't really like it, and her parents say, well, you got to join clubs. And she joined all these readers. That's how I feel like I am now, is just to say, like, hey, any interest that I have, it's not off limits. I could take a class. I can learn about it. I might say, this isn't for me. I might say, hey, I love this. I want to kind of build on this and kind of learn, but it's just this idea of just, like, staying curious. Mortgage buffet.
[47:14] Christina Donovan: Just sample and try, and that's it.
[47:17] Tara Bansal: Explore. That's what I hear. You're trying lots of things, and it's a gift.
[47:22] Kellie Walenciak: It's a gift to be able to do that, to wake up and think like, hey, I'm kind of curious in this. And to not think, well, that's off limits. It's saying, no, you can do it. Let me tell you, I was the least athletic person. I mean, my brother always says, we didn't think my sister could run when she was a kid, because it was just, like, a terrible.
[47:43] Christina Donovan: And you ran a marathon, though.
[47:45] Kellie Walenciak: I did, yeah. I ran the New York City marathon. Yeah. So it's just kind of like, I keep telling myself nothing is off. Just. And recognizing the value in being able to make that happen and the fortune to be able to have an interest and to be able to pursue it and to not like it and say, okay, I'll pursue something else or say, and I love it, and to continue pursuing it and learning it more deeply and all of that. And I think it's a strong message to our kids, too, to never stop learning.
[48:19] Christina Donovan: That's what listening to you, I'm like, wow, what an amazing role model you are for your kids to watch their mom just try everything and have that zest for life. Yeah. That's a great gift for your kids.
[48:36] Kellie Walenciak: Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.
[48:38] Tara Bansal: What advice do you have for those approaching this next phase and how to figure it out, I feel like you make it look easy. So I don't know. I'd love just to hear more what advice you have.
[48:57] Kellie Walenciak: Well, I think it's kind of trying to figure out, what do you enjoy doing? What skills that you have that are transferable, what skills don't you have that you think you might want to learn or figure out? Yeah, right. Because I think when you start there, when you think about things that here are things that I know I like to do, here are things that I think I would like to do, and here are things I absolutely would never want to do. But I would say on that never want to do part is to really kind of reflect, because sometimes it could be something that happened in our past that might kind of. I think my sister would make an amazing nurse. And she says, well, you know what? I always hated high school. And I'm like, okay, well, there's been a lot of years since high school. You would approach it very differently now. So it's kind of like when you're writing down those things that you think you hate, some of them it might be true, but kind of do some self reflection about, like, are you not interested in that because someone told you you couldn't do it or there was something that happened that made you put a bad taste in your mouth because nothing should be off the table. You can't really do anything. I mean, there's a great movie out now called Nayad about a woman who swam from, like, 63 years old. I mean, gosh, I was watching that on a plane out to San Francisco, and I was like, I had to refrain myself from cheering. It was such an uplifting movie. Yeah, it's incredible. And just wanted to do it to prove that she could. And again, it's because of the societal limitations we tend to place on people as they age. She can't do that. She can't learn this. He can't do that. It's like, no, we all can, and we should. And we shouldn't want to. It shouldn't be okay saying, I can't learn that. No. So that would be my advice.
[50:50] Tara Bansal: And once you have. I love that. Come up with that list. But how about trying to find roles or positions? Any advice on that or recommendations?
[51:04] Kellie Walenciak: Well, depending on sometimes, as I said, I mentioned someone that I know who's not working for anybody. He's just got this kind of passion for photography, and he's kind of turned it into something really special. So I think depending on what it is, if it's a skill like writing, we have a nonprofit. I know my former boss, her husband, he is like a true renaissance man. And I think it was a niece who had had childhood cancer. And when he retired from corporate America, he started kind of being a volunteer pr person for a cancer organization and doing all of their pr work. So there are so many things that you can kind of do know. Networking and staying in touch with people and asking questions and leveraging social media. People seem to think social media is black or white. It isn't right. There's a lot of good that social media does, and one is kind of allow you to maintain connections very easily in ways that we couldn't 2030 years ago. It's almost like when you left a company, unless you were really good friends with somebody, you never saw that person again, the teams that you worked with and that. So now that's not the case. And I think keeping those lines of communication open, that's usually what leads to kind of opportunities or inspirations or things like that.
[52:40] Tara Bansal: We are coming up on our time, and I feel like we could ask you a million more questions, but anything we didn't ask or that you would love to share just before we close off.
[52:56] Kellie Walenciak: I think it's kind of what I said earlier, not to be repetitive, but really just kind of stay curious, stay open minded, and just really kind of commit to continue learning, because the benefits are there for you physically, cognitively, socially. I'll just leave you with this one note I read many years ago, a runner, he ran his, like, I don't know, 20th marathon. He was like, 80 years old. They asked him questions, and they said, how do you stay so youthful? And he said, I don't hang out with anyone my age. I don't hang out with anyone my age. And that was really telling. And he said, people my age, all they want to talk about is their health issues and doctors they're going to see and medications they're taking. There's the lesson in there, right? You don't have to kind of fit that mold where that's all you have to talk about. It's a choice, and you could choose not to. So that would be my.
[54:03] Tara Bansal: Wow. You are truly inspirational, and we are so grateful that you took this time to be with us.
[54:10] Kellie Walenciak: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
[54:13] Christina Donovan: Yeah, it was wonderful to listen to you and talk to you. Thank you. We really appreciate you giving us an hour of your time.
[54:21] Kellie Walenciak: Thank you. I appreciate it, and I love talking.
[54:25] Tara Bansal: Wow. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did. I don't want to talk too long here, but there was a lot there to take in and think about. Kellie's curiosity and enthusiasm is palpable and for me, contagious. I so agree with her article. I have strongly felt that way for a while that people should not, in the typical sense, retire. I believe that for a fulfilling and well lived life, we need to feel useful. It takes time and some effort to figure out our next phase, and I think that's always true. Try to embrace that and have some fun with it. It's never too early to start thinking about dreaming, exploring, and scheming for your next phase. Yes, I realize not everyone has a choice for when their next phase will come upon them. I used to teach a class at the Princeton adult school called timeless happiness. It was about preparing for your next phase, commonly those approaching retirement. But I didn't want to call it retirement or name the class like that. The word retirement actually means to withdraw, and that happens way too often when some people retire. My class focused on what Kellie and her article presented. I think Tina and I are going to talk more about this class and what I present in future episodes. I loved how Kellie is so willing to try new things and her desire to keep learning. I liked her recommendation of creating a list with three columns, one of things you like and want to do, things you would consider and those that you don't want to do, and her challenge and the importance of questioning the things that you don't think that you want to do. I also love the idea of transferring skills and strengths to new places or new roles. We are so grateful for the time and wisdom Kellie shared with us. We would love to hear your thoughts and comments. Our website, messymiddlescence.com is finally up and live. Please go check it out and we'd love to hear what you think. For show notes and other information about our podcast, please go to our website, messymidalescence.com. If you enjoyed listening, please share with others and come back for more.
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Kellie Walenciak
Head of Marketing & Communications
Kellie Walenciak is the head of Marketing and Communications for Televerde. In this role, Kellie is responsible for developing and executing a marketing strategy and brand image that sets Televerde apart while building long-lasting customer relationships. She oversees all internal and external digital marketing, brand messaging and management, content marketing, media relations, and employee communications.
Previously, Kellie spent 14 years at Avaya, where she last served as head of Employee Engagement and executive communications partner to the CMO, head of HR, and General Counsel. Before Avaya, Kellie held marketing and communications roles at Prudential Financial and PSEG Energy Technologies.
With a communications career spanning close to three decades, Kellie has honed a keen sense of ambiguity, contradiction, and subtlety. She's a staunch grammar aficionado with a penchant for the red pen—a trait celebrated by her colleagues but often lamented by her closest friends and family.
Kellie gives back to her community by volunteering for the Televerde Foundation in Phoenix, AZ, and Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, New York. Outside work, Kellie cherishes moments with her husband Matt and their three children. She's an avid fan of Netflix's true-life crime series, and enjoys hiking, tennis, and travel. Her passions also include plant-based cooking, weekend getaways, and engaging in the occasional political debate.
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Kellie’s article from Ageist: “The Secret to Immortality: Why I’ll Never Retire”
Televerde - Where Kellie works
Information on The Blue Zones